med call: station 7, batt, clark

[FreeBird]

10-44 attempt, 30yof, possible OD

 

res 7, clark, SO enroute

Edited December 14, 2010 by FreeBird

[FreeBird]

res 7 staged in the area

[FreeBird]

SO 175 asking for numberics, on scene

[hurstrsq]

res 7 staged in the area

 

Is it standard procedure in Paulding to stage for something like this?

[FreeBird]

res 7, clark on scene

 

Is it standard procedure in Paulding to stage for something like this?

 

 

yes, EMS will always stage before the LEO arrives on a call like this

[hurstrsq]

res 7, clark on scene

 

 

 

 

yes, EMS will always stage before the LEO arrives on a call like this

 

That's interesting. I wonder why?

[FreeBird]

think about it - the person may have a gun, knife or whatever. The SO is prepared for dealing with that situation. Once the area is secured, then the LEO will call for EMS to proceed in.

 

SO 160 on scene

[hurstrsq]

think about it - the person may have a gun, knife or whatever. The SO is prepared for dealing with that situation. Once the area is secured, then the LEO will call for EMS to proceed in.

 

SO 160 on scene

 

I could see staging if the person was reported to be violent or reported to have a weapon. A person could have a weapon on any scene.

 

Everyone does stuff different I guess.

[ignoreme]

Staging is very common on an OD call.

[hurstrsq]

Staging is very common on an OD call.

 

I guess perhaps in this area. Still not sure why. Really no data to support it from a safety stand point. Perhaps there is a different reason, like because the police/sheriff's department says so or some other legal reason.

[FreeBird]

on every 10-44 call that I have heard, if EMS arrives fist, then they stage in the area

[hurstrsq]

on every 10-44 call that I have heard, if EMS arrives fist, then they stage in the area

 

I understand what you are saying. Just wondered what the logic was. I'm always looking to learn something new.

[FreeBird]

There are several LEOs and EMS workers on here so maybe one of them can provide an official response.

Edited December 14, 2010 by FreeBird

[bwilliams]

I understand what you are saying. Just wondered what the logic was. I'm always looking to learn something new.

When I trained for 911 operator, we were given certain situations where it could be very dangerous for the unarmed EMS. Officer goes in first to see if the suicidal person is combative. Once it's established as safe, then they call in EMS. In my actual 911 call experience, the turn around time was not long at all.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Póg mo thóin

[hurstrsq]

When I trained for 911 operator, we were given certain situations where it could be very dangerous for the unarmed EMS. Officer goes in first to see if the suicidal person is combative. Once it's established as safe, then they call in EMS. In my actual 911 call experience, the turn around time was not long at all.

 

Fires 'could be very dangerous', but the fire department does not stage and wait for it to burn itself out. Just sayin....

 

Sounds like an old policy, not based on data, that has never been revisited.

[bwilliams]

Fires 'could be very dangerous', but the fire department does not stage and wait for it to burn itself out. Just sayin....

 

Sounds like an old policy, not based on data, that has never been revisited.

Not really. Firefighters are equipped to handle fires. They know they're going into one.

 

A small, quiet house with a very distraught person on the inside?

 

You don't know if you're going to walk into a house with a crying person, unconscious person, or going out with shotguns a blazin' person.

 

Fires vs. suicides are like comparing apples to oranges.

 

I don't think it's outdated and in my personal experience, I've heard of calls going both ways. Peaceful and otherwise harmful to people around them.

[FreeBird]

Fires 'could be very dangerous', but the fire department does not stage and wait for it to burn itself out. Just sayin....

 

Sounds like an old policy, not based on data, that has never been revisited.

 

In Paulding, sometime there will only be a single fire fighter on duty at a station. If there was a fire, the FF would drive the engine to the scene. He/she would not enter the strucuture until backup arrived. So yes, in the case of a fire, the first responder will wait until is appropriate to enter the home.

[hurstrsq]

Not really. Firefighters are equipped to handle fires. They know they're going into one.

 

A small, quiet house with a very distraught person on the inside?

 

You don't know if you're going to walk into a house with a crying person, unconscious person, or going out with shotguns a blazin' person.

 

Fires vs. suicides are like comparing apples to oranges.

 

I don't think it's outdated and in my personal experience, I've heard of calls going both ways. Peaceful and otherwise harmful to people around them.

 

I would think the 911 center would ask a lot of questions to identify what is going on and determine the appropriate action.

 

Ok, perhaps a better fire comparison would be to say we will only fight fires from the outside, because going in is too dangerous. A blanket policy like that may not yield the best results.

[bwilliams]

I would think the 911 center would ask a lot of questions to identify what is going on and determine the appropriate action.

Ok, perhaps a better fire comparison would be to say we will only fight fires from the outside, because going in is too dangerous. A blanket policy like that may not yield the best results.

 

They do.

 

Personally, I would rather have the police officers there and not needed rather than having a house full of dead or wounded EMS. But apparently we see things differently.

 

Anyway, I hope this person gets the help they need. My thoughts are with them and the family

[SLambert]

I think its a great policy...I have family that are EMS/Fire fighters and they state that on a suicide attempt, even if the caller to 911 or the 911 operator says the subject is calm, he still won't go in till the SO is on scene and says it's ok. You never know how the person is going to react when help arrives...some are greatful, some just cry, some get very angry and want to fight. They are not prepared to handle hostile situations should it come to that...always better to have SO in ahead of you to make sure all is ok and stays that way =)

[gwilli8866]

My thoughts are that the EMS doesn't enter until the SO arrives.....it could be that the SO needs to go in and verify that it is an overdose/suicide attempt rather than a homicide staged as a suicide. If EMS goes in and it is not an actual suicide attempt they could contaminate any evidence that the SO would need to find the guilty party. The EMS safety is also at the top of the list. Some people want to do the "suicide by cop" and if they take an EMS with them they wouldn't care.

[hurstrsq]

They do.

 

Personally, I would rather have the police officers there and not needed rather than having a house full of dead or wounded EMS. But apparently we see things differently.

 

Anyway, I hope this person gets the help they need. My thoughts are with them and the family

 

I'd like to have a police office parked in the front of my neighborhood every night, just in case. But it does not make sense.

 

Just because something was done a certain way for a long time does not make it right. Sometimes change can be good. Like in this case, patient care would not be delayed.

 

My thoughts are that the EMS doesn't enter until the SO arrives.....it could be that the SO needs to go in and verify that it is an overdose/suicide attempt rather than a homicide staged as a suicide. If EMS goes in and it is not an actual suicide attempt they could contaminate any evidence that the SO would need to find the guilty party. The EMS safety is also at the top of the list. Some people want to do the "suicide by cop" and if they take an EMS with them they wouldn't care.

 

Yeah, because that happens a lot. Wow, you've been watching way too much law and order.

[MrsB]

I'd like to have a police office parked in the front of my neighborhood every night, just in case. But it does not make sense.

 

Just because something was done a certain way for a long time does not make it right. Sometimes change can be good. Like in this case, patient care would not be delayed.

 

 

 

Yeah, because that happens a lot. Wow, you've been watching way too much law and order.

Sheesh. Simmer down. It is what it is. EMT are not trained to do the job of a cop. That's it. I have never heard This being done any other way. Why is this bothering you so much?

[Ugadawgs98]

EMS is trained in patient care. On most suicide threat/attempt calls there is a lot more going on at the scene than patient care. You are dealing with an unstable person in a crisis situation who probably does not want you there or your 'help'. Many times they will react in a hostile or violent manner towards the responders. LE has the tools, training and legal justification to act in ways EMS cannot.

 

Bottom line....it is the safest way to do things for all involved.

[hurstrsq]

EMS is trained in patient care. On most suicide threat/attempt calls there is a lot more going on at the scene than patient care. You are dealing with an unstable person in a crisis situation who probably does not want you there or your 'help'. Many times they will react in a hostile or violent manner towards the responders. LE has the tools, training and legal justification to act in ways EMS cannot.

 

Bottom line....it is the safest way to do things for all involved.

 

I'm guessing you are not an EMS provider (or hopefully not if this is how you think it is out there). You say 'many times they will react in a hostile or voilent manner towards the responders'. Where do you get your data? It does happen, but as a percentage, not that often. Again, I'm not saying don't send them. But why delay care if there is no indication of a violent patient.

 

The fact is EMTs are trained to deal with all kinds of stuff, and not just patient care. You certainly need a law enforcement response on SOME medical situations. You don't have to stage on every suicide/overdose. Trust me. We've become such a pussified/PC society it is sad.

 

Do you think the police rode to the hospital in the ambulance with the patient? I really doubt it. Something could happen, right? What if the patient had a weapon hidden and went crazy in the back of the ambulance. Lots of what if's, huh. We don't over react and have an officer ride to the hospital on every call just because something could happen.

 

I've been a certified EMS provider for about 19 years, at both the BLS and ALS levels. I was a certified Fire Fighter, and I worked in a 911 center in my younger days. My career experience is in a major city with a nationally recognized inovative program and a huge murder and violent crime rate. I understand scene safety. I've got a wife and kids to get home to.

 

The times I've needed police on the scene (and they were not already there), there was no indication we would have needed them there, base on how the call came in. They were routine medical calls. I'm not saying don't send the police. I'm just saying stage when appropriate. Use your brain.

 

As Fire and EMS providers, there is much more of a risk just trying to get to the scene. Odds are, once you get there (at least on the EMS side), you will be fine.

 

Sorry to hijack the thread, just wondering why something was done a certain way.

[ignoreme]

It's not just in this area. It's in other states, too.

 

I guess perhaps in this area. Still not sure why. Really no data to support it from a safety stand point. Perhaps there is a different reason, like because the police/sheriff's department says so or some other legal reason.

[hurstrsq]

It's not just in this area. It's in other states, too.

 

Could be. I checked around before posting to get some other opinions, and they laughed when I asked the question. I've never seen it in any areas I've worked. I asked an ER nurse that works in a trauma center if she had ever heard of it, and she said their ambulances only stage if the call indicated there was a reason to (patient was violent or had a weapon), but they did not have a blanket policy.

[ignoreme]

Without having all of the details of the call we really can't judge the decision ... what we can do is respect that many departments/agencies all over the country have staging policies when certain criteria are met. They have reasons for their policies. While not in any way passing judgment on the person this call was for ... young female ... OD ... could easily be read as a possible suicide attempt. That is never considered a safe scene until somebody is actually there and can assess that in person.

 

 

Again ... not saying that is what the call was.

 

 

Could be. I checked around before posting to get some other opinions, and they laughed when I asked the question. I've never seen it in any areas I've worked. I asked an ER nurse that works in a trauma center if she had ever heard of it, and she said their ambulances only stage if the call indicated there was a reason to (patient was violent or had a weapon), but they did not have a blanket policy.

[hurstrsq]

Without having all of the details of the call we really can't judge the decision ... what we can do is respect that many departments/agencies all over the country have staging policies when certain criteria are met. They have reasons for their policies. While not in any way passing judgment on the person this call was for ... young female ... OD ... could easily be read as a possible suicide attempt. That is never considered a safe scene until somebody is actually there and can assess that in person.

 

 

Again ... not saying that is what the call was.

 

If you read the entire thread, I was just asking what the reasoning was. I have not seen any data that would support it, so just asked the question. Was not sure if their was some legal reason, or just something else that determined why they had that policy. Really just hoping to learn something new.

 

I do believe it is crazy if there is no legal, etc. reason behind. Other than 'scene safety'. Come on, really???

[ignoreme]

And I was giving one possible explanation for it. If it was an intentional OD, that is not considered a safe scene.

[hurstrsq]

And I was giving one possible explanation for it. If it was an intentional OD, that is not considered a safe scene.

 

Seriously??????? Intentional OD, scene not safe as a general rule??????????????? WOW. So much for getting additional information and making a well informed decision, or even having a reasonable policy.

 

Have you ever looked at the statistical data regarding injuries and deaths for EMS workers? You should check it out.

 

As tax paying citizens in this county, it is in our best interest to question policies and demand the best possible patient care. And if in fact, the blanket policy for any intentional OD is to stage, I would think it needs to be re-evaluated based on risk/benefit. A blanket policy does not work best for the EMS providers or citizens.

[CreativeOne]

Seriously??????? Intentional OD, scene not safe as a general rule??????????????? WOW. So much for getting additional information and making a well informed decision, or even having a reasonable policy.

 

Have you ever looked at the statistical data regarding injuries and deaths for EMS workers? You should check it out.

 

As tax paying citizens in this county, it is in our best interest to question policies and demand the best possible patient care. And if in fact, the blanket policy for any intentional OD is to stage, I would think it needs to be re-evaluated based on risk/benefit. A blanket policy does not work best for the EMS providers or citizens.

I've been reading this entire thread and I didn't get where you were coming from until the very end.

I don't know what the answer is as far as how to better handle these situations, but if you have a better approach which doesn't endanger the 1st responders, then please go talk to them.

good luck.

[Ugadawgs98]

I'm guessing you are not an EMS provider (or hopefully not if this is how you think it is out there). You say 'many times they will react in a hostile or voilent manner towards the responders'. Where do you get your data? It does happen, but as a percentage, not that often. Again, I'm not saying don't send them. But why delay care if there is no indication of a violent patient.

 

 

From years of responding to these type of situations in a LE capacity.

 

I have seen plenty who became physically violent, some who armed themselves and barricaded, some who did the deed when responders drove up, and even a few full fledged suicide by cop scenarios where they made someone do the work for them by offering violence. Many of these had nothing to indicate it would go down that way, one of the worst I remember is a call simply saying "my BF told me he was taking some pills and now he won't answer the phone". That turned into a real life nightmare and had an unarmed EMT approached first I guarantee they would have been in a body bag.

 

So, don't think you are the only one here with real world experience. Does EMS need to stage on suicide attempts? Until we can predict what will happen from the limited 9-1-1 info and not simply hope for the best....yes. The safety of all first responders should be the number 1 goal.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Ugadawgs98

[hurstrsq]

From years of responding to these type of situations in a LE capacity.

 

I have seen plenty who became physically violent, some who armed themselves and barricaded, some who did the deed when responders drove up, and even a few full fledged suicide by cop scenarios where they made someone do the work for them by offering violence. Many of these had nothing to indicate it would go down that way, one of the worst I remember is a call simply saying "my BF told me he was taking some pills and now he won't answer the phone". That turned into a real life nightmare and had an unarmed EMT approached first I guarantee they would have been in a body bag.

 

So, don't think you are the only one here with real world experience. Does EMS need to stage on suicide attempts? Until we can predict what will happen from limited 9-1-1 info and not simply hope for the best....yes.

 

You are right in that situation. My expectation on a scenerio like that is Law Enforcement would make contact first. No question.

 

My point is depending on the additional information, it can be reasonable to approach a scene, but to say on all intentional ODs we stage, is just crazy.

 

Your scenario above is a bit different than say a teenage girl that has overdosed on on something and is unconcious. Why delay patient care because there is a very slight chance she might actually wake up and fight. Isn't the goal to wake them? What happens then? Are you in the back of the ambulance when and if they do regain conciousness? The fact is patients fight in the back of the truck and police are not back there.

 

I've seen many violent diabetics that fight, but law enforcement isn't generally dispatched on them. At some point you have to use your brain. The safest thing for our responders would to have them never use lights and sirens when responding and obey all traffic laws, since most EMS deaths occur then. It my not be in the patients best interest, but according to many of you alls logic, who cares. It is safest for EMS.

 

We should be more concerned as citizens that (according to an earlier post) some stations are staffed with 1 fire fighter at times. Talk about not safe for those poor guys and girls.

[solosoul]

I will say a few years ago I was VERY VERY upset that after calling 911 about a girl going door to door banging and talking out of her head that by the time EMS got to the neighborhood and was "staging" at the Club house waiting on the SO to get here that they just sat in their truck and watched as we tackeled the girl to stop her from running out in front of traffic. Even with us asking for help they would not get out until the SO got there. I guess if not for the people who were with me they would have watched her get run over.

[MrsB]

I've been reading this entire thread and I didn't get where you were coming from until the very end.

I don't know what the answer is as far as how to better handle these situations, but if you have a better approach which doesn't endanger the 1st responders, then please go talk to them.

good luck.

^ What she said.

[ignoreme]

It's unfortunate that it's looking more to me like somebody is looking for an argument instead of a reasonable exchange so I'll leave this thread to the rest of you. Enjoy.

[hurstrsq]

It's unfortunate that it's looking more to me like somebody is looking for an argument instead of a reasonable exchange so I'll leave this thread to the rest of you. Enjoy.

 

I'm really not looking for an argument. My rationale is supported by data, and being a reasonable, considerate human being.

 

I just have not seen a response yet that gives a good, data or legal supported, reason. If we really care about our responders, we need to beef up staffing at the fire stations in this county, and evaluate what calls fire and EMS reponds lights and sirens to. That would actually and save more lives.

 

As a resident of the county, I'd like to see the best possible patient care provided to our citizens. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

[FreeBird]

you may not have heard, but increased staffing, and improved equipment (among many other things) lead to an improved ISO rating for the fire department this year.

 

They get called out for many ridiculous things - this morning engine 1 responded to an "unknown problem" with the smoke detector. Don't you simply call "Jim the handy man" instead of 911 if your damn battery needs to be replaced and you can't do it yourself?

[solosoul]

you may not have heard, but increased staffing, and improved equipment (among many other things) lead to an improved ISO rating for the fire department this year.

 

They get called out for many ridiculous things - this morning engine 1 responded to an "unknown problem" with the smoke detector. Don't you simply call "Jim the handy man" instead of 911 if your damn battery needs to be replaced and you can't do it yourself?

 

Nope not around here...never heard so many BS calls.