CitizenCain Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Bakers who refuse to make cakes for gay weddings have 'fundamental right' to turn away orders says Jeff SessionsRead more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4970124/Sessions-stands-anti-gay-cake-bakers.html#ixzz4vIbUBFFG Link to post Share on other sites
LPPT Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Bakers who refuse to make cakes for gay weddings have 'fundamental right' to turn away orders says Jeff Sessions Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4970124/Sessions-stands-anti-gay-cake-bakers.html#ixzz4vIbUBFFG I guess this means they can also turn away interracial couples. Muslims? Catholic? Jews? Are they going to question every customer about their religion and ethnicity? How about any other sins they may have committed. I see no difference, they need to refuse those that have had sex before marriage. They also need to ask if they have been divorced or committed adultery. If you are refusing people based on their sins per, the bible then you need to stick to it. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
cptlo306 Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) Sessions is completely right on this. Edited October 12, 2017 by cptlo306 3 Link to post Share on other sites
CitizenCain Posted October 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Sessions is completely right on this. Bet you thought this was a good idea too. Link to post Share on other sites
cptlo306 Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Bet you thought this was a good idea too. Typical...as usual you resort to calling people racist. There is a big difference but apparently you don't understand that. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
CitizenCain Posted October 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) Typical...as usual you resort to calling people racist. There is a big difference but apparently you don't understand that. I didn't call anyone anything I just pointed the hypocrisy of your beliefs. And no there is no difference, and yes LPPT is right who is next on your evangelical hit list ? Edited October 12, 2017 by CitizenCain Link to post Share on other sites
Blondiega1 Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 So that I understand the playing field............. This is not okay, but this is? (see below) http://paulding.com/forum/topic/321557-owner-bans-cops-military-from-joining-gym/?hl=%2Bjim+%2Bchambers , 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Mustluvdogs Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 And, liberals keep shutting down FREE SPEECH on campuses. That's worse than some bakers refusing to make a cake when people can get a cake easily somewhere else. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
CitizenCain Posted October 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) So that I understand the playing field............. This is not okay, but this is? (see below) http://paulding.com/forum/topic/321557-owner-bans-cops-military-from-joining-gym/?hl=%2Bjim+%2Bchambers , Good point, Or put another way this ok but this is not ? http://paulding.com/forum/topic/321557-owner-bans-cops-military-from-joining-gym/?hl=%2Bjim+%2Bchambers And, liberals keep shutting down FREE SPEECH on campuses. That's worse than some bakers refusing to make a cake when people can get a cake easily somewhere else. Didn't take long for that. Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument,[1][2] [3] which is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.[4][5][6] When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union, the Soviet response would be "What about..." followed by an event in the Western world. Edited October 12, 2017 by CitizenCain 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Blondiega1 Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Good point, Or put another way this ok but this is not ? http://paulding.com/...=+jim +chambers 404 error on your link. Link to post Share on other sites
LPPT Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 I guess the difference for me is discriminating against people for the way they are born. Many Christians don't believe that they are born that way. They believe that people choose a lifestyle that will cause them to be shunned, abused and sometimes killed. It is no different than discriminating against people born with a mental deficit. The brains of homosexuals are obviously different than those of heterosexuals. Basically, it boils down to being mean to Gay people. It's not like they were asking them to put porn on a wedding cake. It says a lot about Jeff Sessions belief about homosexuality. Link to post Share on other sites
Guard dad Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 A privately owned business that does not fall under the category of public utility should have the right to refuse service to any person for any reason.Consequently; customers of such privately owned companies have the right to choose not to do business with them.It's called freedom. It says a lot about Jeff Sessions belief about homosexuality. No, it says a lot about Sessions' belief in freedom.The government has no business forcing a privately owned company to do business with someone. Link to post Share on other sites
mrshoward Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Gay Coffee Shop Owner Kicks Out Christians : http://www.dailywire.com/news/22027/watch-gay-coffee-shop-owner-denies-service-ryan-saavedra#exit-modal Freedom is a two way street... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Guard dad Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Bet you thought this was a good idea too. Shame on you, dude! This is exactly the kind of crap that is continuing to push race relations back to the dark ages. I understood cptlo's comment, it was in support of freedom. It had nothing to do with race. Nothing! Several other examples of private businesses refusing service have been posted here, and I support the right of all of them to decide how their business will be ran. I even support the gay coffee shop owner's right to refuse service to Christians. I don't agree with it, but he should have that right as the owner of the business. This is America, man! The land of the free. It's not supposed to be the land of government suppression. It's not supposed to be a communist dictatorship. Let's say you own Cains Printing Service, and Donald Trump walks in to order some banners reading "Democrats Are Nutless". You should have right to tell him to get out of your establishment, and I would support that right. You started the business with your money, you put your assets at risk, you should have the right to make decisions. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
CitizenCain Posted October 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 A privately owned business that does not fall under the category of public utility should have the right to refuse service to any person for any reason. Consequently; customers of such privately owned companies have the right to choose not to do business with them. It's called freedom. And that's the kind of society you want to live in ? Maybe that "freedom" has to do with the fact that 76% of the country is white. Get back to us when that role reverses itself in twenty years. Link to post Share on other sites
mojo413 Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 I'm so torn over this topic. If I go in a business and I don't like a product they sell, or I don't like the smell, or I really don't care for the music, or I just don't like it there... I go somewhere else. Now if we were talking about a life saving medication that the customer would die without and this was the only shop within 1,000 miles that could dispense this medication, then yes. But it's a cake, go on down the street to another bakery, discount store, grocery store, Sam's Club or I'll bet you can order a cake on-line now. Several years ago I went in a tire store in Hiram where they advertised they beat anyone's price. The person at the counter refused to accept the WalMart website price in my phone. That person required "A Hard Copy Quote". I moved on down the street, now I'm on a first name basis with that tire store crew. I wonder if the first place does not want to do business with heavy, gray headed guys driving pickup trucks with Trump stickers? QUICK SOMEONE CALL THE MEDIA BECAUSE I'VE BEEN OFFENDED. Link to post Share on other sites
Guard dad Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 And that's the kind of society you want to live in ? Maybe that "freedom" has to do with the fact that 76% of the country is white. Get back to us when that role reverses itself in twenty years. I'll state again... It has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with freedom. Can you turn off your programming long enough to consider that? Link to post Share on other sites
CitizenCain Posted October 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 I'll state again... It has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with freedom. Can you turn off your programming long enough to consider that? That's exactly word for word the same argument that made Blacks eat in restaurant kitchens forty years ago. Now it's gays I'll ask you who is next on your evangelical hit list ? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
cptlo306 Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Can you turn off your programming long enough to consider that? No, he isn't capable. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
LPPT Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 A privately owned business that does not fall under the category of public utility should have the right to refuse service to any person for any reason. Consequently; customers of such privately owned companies have the right to choose not to do business with them. It's called freedom. No, it says a lot about Sessions' belief in freedom. The government has no business forcing a privately owned company to do business with someone. You must really not remember how bad it was for blacks. I remember how they were treated. Discrimination has an ugly history. It doesn't stop at lunch counters and bus seats. Even more recently abused and murdered Gay people have not gotten what they had the right to in our judicial system. It doesn't stop in the bakery. It is the condoning of hatred and the freedom to practice it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Guard dad Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 That's exactly word for word the same argument that made Blacks eat in restaurant kitchens forty years ago. Now it's gays I'll ask you who is next on your evangelical hit list ? You must really not remember how bad it was for blacks. I remember how they were treated. Discrimination has an ugly history. It doesn't stop at lunch counters and bus seats. Even more recently abused and murdered Gay people have not gotten what they had the right to in our judicial system. It doesn't stop in the bakery. It is the condoning of hatred and the freedom to practice it. Cain, I'm getting really tired of your personal attacks. LPPT - I think I'm older than you are, so yes I remember. Legislation was necessary in areas such as public schools refusing black students and public utilities making them sit on the back of the bus. The rest of the change has come from education and change of heart, not laws. Condoning freedom is not condoning hatred. In fact, it's the lack of freedom that often fosters hatred. Link to post Share on other sites
CitizenCain Posted October 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 I'm so torn over this topic. If I go in a business and I don't like a product they sell, or I don't like the smell, or I really don't care for the music, or I just don't like it there... I go somewhere else. Now if we were talking about a life saving medication that the customer would die without and this was the only shop within 1,000 miles that could dispense this medication, then yes. But it's a cake, go on down the street to another bakery, discount store, grocery store, Sam's Club or I'll bet you can order a cake on-line now. Several years ago I went in a tire store in Hiram where they advertised they beat anyone's price. The person at the counter refused to accept the WalMart website price in my phone. That person required "A Hard Copy Quote". I moved on down the street, now I'm on a first name basis with that tire store crew. I wonder if the first place does not want to do business with heavy, gray headed guys driving pickup trucks with Trump stickers? QUICK SOMEONE CALL THE MEDIA BECAUSE I'VE BEEN OFFENDED. People are afraid if we take away bump stocks or silencers we are on a slippery slope to having our guns taken away but see no problem with this ? Cain, I'm getting really tired of your personal attacks. Please explain to me how that was a personal attack. That's exactly word for word the same argument that made Blacks eat in restaurant kitchens forty years ago. Now it's gays I'll ask you who is next on your evangelical hit list ? Link to post Share on other sites
Guard dad Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Please explain to me how that was a personal attack. You're attacked everyone who disagrees with you by insinuating they are racist racist or religious zealots. If your position is that strong, why can't you just argue the facts and leave the insults out of it? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
gpatt0n Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 So that I understand the playing field............. This is not okay, but this is? (see below) http://paulding.com/forum/topic/321557-owner-bans-cops-military-from-joining-gym/?hl=%2Bjim+%2Bchambers , The key point of confusion in this topic is that the gym owner was promoting marketing, not establishing policy. There is a difference. Consider it like your favorite Christian baker who has images of Glittering Jesus on every wall that is not plastered with quotes about how horrid specific acts might be ... but when the gay couple comes into the bakery still will serve them. Hell, he may even be like those waiters who when snubbed spit in the food before serving it but still serves the customer in those instances. Most customers will not feel welcome and like Mojo, will go to the next tire store. And, liberals keep shutting down FREE SPEECH on campuses. That's worse than some bakers refusing to make a cake when people can get a cake easily somewhere else. I don't think they're shutting down free speech, they're just good at yelling louder. The reality is that the first amendment really applies only to acts by the government and government officials. The state colleges or local governments are no more empowered to tell those who shout down Milo Yiannopoulos to shut up than they are to tell Milo to. Gay Coffee Shop Owner Kicks Out Christians : http://www.dailywire.com/news/22027/watch-gay-coffee-shop-owner-denies-service-ryan-saavedra#exit-modal Freedom is a two way street... Some people exceed their authority. Sometimes they're sued and sometimes they aren't. Sometimes, if they carry a badge and exceed their authority, an unarmed person lies dead while the person who exceeded their authority is placed on a month-long paid administrative leave (aka: vacation.) Exceeding one's authority and facing the consequences is part of life in a civilized society. Some of those consequences can be critical comments on pcom or in the NYTimes or even Brietbart. What else is new? Shame on you, dude! This is exactly the kind of crap that is continuing to push race relations back to the dark ages. I understood cptlo's comment, it was in support of freedom. It had nothing to do with race. Nothing! Several other examples of private businesses refusing service have been posted here, and I support the right of all of them to decide how their business will be ran. I even support the gay coffee shop owner's right to refuse service to Christians. I don't agree with it, but he should have that right as the owner of the business. This is America, man! The land of the free. It's not supposed to be the land of government suppression. It's not supposed to be a communist dictatorship. Let's say you own Cains Printing Service, and Donald Trump walks in to order some banners reading "Democrats Are Nutless". You should have right to tell him to get out of your establishment, and I would support that right. You started the business with your money, you put your assets at risk, you should have the right to make decisions. For a businessman, you're awful damned dumb. There is a presumption that if you're offering goods or servers to the public, you have to offer them without discrimination. That is a fact. Another fact is that for every 'court case' or news story, there are thousands of other interactions in which the seller or buyer discriminattes on a whole host of factors. Successful business people tend to be accommodating to their customers primarily because they prize the rewards for doing so. Other people are more principled and endure the costs of their principles. Obviously one of the principles I hold dear is freedom of speech. We know that by your presence because as we all know, I have the right to excise those with whom I disagree and obviously we disagree. But my principles include jealous assertion of my own free speech. I think you guys have all recognized if not rejoiced in maximizing the costs of my principles. The only certainty in business is that when one has principles, exercising those principles have a cost. The baker knows that and should be happy to bear the cost of their principles which may come in the form of a judgement for damages. I would simply suggest that those folks accept the sacrifices they've made for their principles with pride. It is called being grown up. pubby Link to post Share on other sites
mrshoward Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 The SCOTUS decision should be announced within the next couple of weeks... Link to post Share on other sites
Guard dad Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 For a businessman, you're awful damned dumb. There is a presumption that if you're offering goods or servers to the public, you have to offer them without discrimination. That is a fact. Another fact is that for every 'court case' or news story, there are thousands of other interactions in which the seller or buyer discriminattes on a whole host of factors. Successful business people tend to be accommodating to their customers primarily because they prize the rewards for doing so. Other people are more principled and endure the costs of their principles. Obviously one of the principles I hold dear is freedom of speech. We know that by your presence because as we all know, I have the right to excise those with whom I disagree and obviously we disagree. But my principles include jealous assertion of my own free speech. I think you guys have all recognized if not rejoiced in maximizing the costs of my principles. The only certainty in business is that when one has principles, exercising those principles have a cost. The baker knows that and should be happy to bear the cost of their principles which may come in the form of a judgement for damages. I would simply suggest that those folks accept the sacrifices they've made for their principles with pride. It is called being grown up. pubby First off, thanks for the insult. I was recently warned for saying essentially the same thing about you, but I guess it's OK for you to do it. Secondly...lemme see if I understand you....you're saying that a business owner should be forced by government to violate his/her own moral or religious standards, just to give a customer what they want. Does that about cover it? Link to post Share on other sites
CitizenCain Posted October 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 First off, thanks for the insult. I was recently warned for saying essentially the same thing about you, but I guess it's OK for you to do it. Secondly...lemme see if I understand you....you're saying that a business owner should be forced by government to violate his/her own moral or religious standards, just to give a customer what they want. Does that about cover it? Do you seriouslly think this decision by the Justice Dept. is going to end with private business ? Dotard has already banned transgender people from serving in the military. Not long ago a county clerk refused to give a marriage licence to gay couples. No this is just the beginning and if successful you can bet it will not end with homosexuals, "that I can tell you". Link to post Share on other sites
gpatt0n Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 First off, thanks for the insult. I was recently warned for saying essentially the same thing about you, but I guess it's OK for you to do it. Secondly...lemme see if I understand you....you're saying that a business owner should be forced by government to violate his/her own moral or religious standards, just to give a customer what they want. Does that about cover it? First, I think your response validates my insult. (I don't think that was the reason for the warn.) The point is that the business is not forced to do anything other than provide their good or service to all without discrimination. It is their choice to discriminate against someone for whatever reason they choose but with the full knowledge that they will pay a price. The price may be minimal - it may be as little as the $50 in profit for the wedding cake - or $5000 in fines because they were sanctioned in a civil action over their discrimination. The point is they are choosing to sacrifice for their principles and they make that sacrifice with full knowledge of the potential consequences. If their principles were based on the capitalistic ethic, they would maximize profit and do the work and earn the profit by selling their goods and services to all comers. It is this capitalistic ethic, combined with the American ethic that all are equal in the eyes of the law, that is at the heart of the law. pubby Link to post Share on other sites
Mustluvdogs Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/there-should-be-free-speech-on-college-campuses-for_us_59a4144fe4b0a62d0987b0b3 https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-chilling-study-shows-how-hostile-college-students-are-toward-free-speech/2017/09/18/cbb1a234-9ca8-11e7-9083-fbfddf6804c2_story.html?utm_term=.2f2e9acdfbff https://www.aclu.org/other/speech-campus Free speech should apply to all. Link to post Share on other sites
CitizenCain Posted October 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Free speech should apply to all. Just not NFL players, Black Lives Matter,ANTIFA and those GD'ed Liberals. Link to post Share on other sites
Stonewall Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 It has already been stated (numerous times). If you do not like the policy do not do business with them. If there are no public funds involved the owner has the right to hire, fire, refuse service, change business hours, set the price for services, etc. As long as the owner does not violate labor laws (and certain health codes, etc.) he can run his business as he damn well pleases. Liberals really need to grow up, go to work, quit relying on big brother (Feds) to bail them out, get off the federal teat and quit worrying about what everybody else is doing. I have enough on my plate creating jobs and being productive to worry about a damn cake maker or whatever. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TJB Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 It has already been stated (numerous times). If you do not like the policy do not do business with them. If there are no public funds involved the owner has the right to hire, fire, refuse service, change business hours, set the price for services, etc. As long as the owner does not violate labor laws (and certain health codes, etc.) he can run his business as he damn well pleases. Liberals really need to grow up, go to work, quit relying on big brother (Feds) to bail them out, get off the federal teat and quit worrying about what everybody else is doing. I have enough on my plate creating jobs and being productive to worry about a damn cake maker or whatever. I assume that "private business" uses public roads and utilities, partially paid for by local residents as well as fire and police departments, also supported by local tax dollars; some which are paid by gay people. Therfore, that private business isn't quite as private as it seems and needs to serve all people. What's next, a hospital refusing to take care of gays and minorities? Link to post Share on other sites
Stonewall Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 I assume that "private business" uses public roads and utilities, partially paid for by local residents as well as fire and police departments, also supported by local tax dollars; some which are paid by gay people. Therfore, that private business isn't quite as private as it seems and needs to serve all people. What's next, a hospital refusing to take care of gays and minorities? OK? SSTREEEEETTCH that a little more. I didn't make the rules that's just how it works. Link to post Share on other sites
Guard dad Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 I assume that "private business" uses public roads and utilities, partially paid for by local residents as well as fire and police departments, also supported by local tax dollars; some which are paid by gay people. Therfore, that private business isn't quite as private as it seems and needs to serve all people. What's next, a hospital refusing to take care of gays and minorities? Couple of things... 1-Businesses pay taxes too 2-Do you as an individual lose your constitutional rights just because you use public roads? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TJB Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Couple of things... 1-Businesses pay taxes too 2-Do you as an individual lose your constitutional rights just because you use public roads? Your constitutional rights, do not entitle you to take rights away from others; especially if denying service places an undue burden on the customer. Just like it was wrong to deny service to the police, this is equally as wrong. Link to post Share on other sites
cptlo306 Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Your constitutional rights, do not entitle you to take rights away from others; especially if denying service places an undue burden on the customer. Just like it was wrong to deny service to the police, this is equally as wrong. So the gay couple has a RIGHT to have a specific company bake a cake for them? Are you serious? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mrshoward Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Your constitutional rights, do not entitle you to take rights away from others; especially if denying service places an undue burden on the customer. Just like it was wrong to deny service to the police, this is equally as wrong. You do not have the right to force someone to bake you a cake. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
cptlo306 Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Many folks are apparently confused as to what a 'right' actually is. Link to post Share on other sites
mrshoward Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 Here's everything you need to know about this case : http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/masterpiece-cakeshop-ltd-v-colorado-civil-rights-commn/ Interestingly... he also refuses to create cakes that celebrate divorce or feature alcohol. Link to post Share on other sites
jennilyn77 Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 God loves gays. Link to post Share on other sites
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