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Unions Hypocrisy


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In many cases the union is the defacto employer. You want to work at a union job with company A, then you must join the union. Whatever laws apply towards the company should also apply towards the union. If the union allows illegals in then that would mean the company could not use their union shop employees without getting in trouble. So as the employer that has a union contract, it would seem to me to. E an affirmative defense for them to just say the union sent me an illegal, how was I to know they were breaking the law. Unions can't have it both ways.

 

As to unions in general, I think they have served their purpose. In today's world economy unions will push up wages but that will cost the US jobs. Until the world's wage market stabilizes everywhere, we will continue to see jobs leave the US especially I f they are labor intensive. That is just a basic fact. The only thing that will stop that is for the US to return to an isolationist stance. Good luck with that. And with all the talk of the new min wage laws, I have yet to see / hear anyone talk about increasing wages of those already just above min wage to compensate. So we either are expecting all workers skilled and unskilled to work for the same wages or we need to get ready for the trickle up inflation that will follow across the board wage increases. And since we now all will earn more we will see more of our wages, for those few remaining jobs, go towards Uncle Barracks tax increase.

You bring up an interesting point about an increase in the minimum wage. Let's say the minimum wage goes up to $10 an hour. Does anyone actually believe those who were earning $10 an hour before the increase will get a pay raise to keep them above the minimum wage at the level they were before? Maybe a small percentage might, but a minimum wage increase is going to have a huge economic impact on businesses, especially small businesses. As I have said before, minimum wage does not decrease poverty or increase the size of the middle-class. Unions don't either.

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Why are you always "baiting" folks? And dont act like you have no idea what I am talking about!   Its crap like this that is turning your "posters" away.   You are a pathetic pathetic person......

There is no excuse for what the Unions are trying to do in Los Angeles. Blatant hypocrisy. Do as I say, not as I do. The Unions used to provide a service. Without them, many of the labor laws that are

Not true if you are great at your job.       Do you think you should be able to quit a job at any time for any reason? If so, why can't the employer do the same?

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You bring up an interesting point about an increase in the minimum wage. Let's say the minimum wage goes up to $10 an hour. Does anyone actually believe those who were earning $10 an hour before the increase will get a pay raise to keep them above the minimum wage at the level they were before? Maybe a small percentage might, but a minimum wage increase is going to have a huge economic impact on businesses, especially small businesses. As I have said before, minimum wage does not decrease poverty or increase the size of the middle-class. Unions don't either.

We will see wage compression like you would never believe. That is just what the liberals want. Everyone is equal, whether they really are or not is irrelevant. Everyone earns the same wage regardless of skill, education or even job risk. That means a race to the bottom. Everyone will want the easiest no brained no risk job out there. Who in their right mind would want to be an LEO risking their life both real and financial when it pays the same as a retail sales associate who just pits stuff on the shelf, answers questions and assists shoppers while in an air conditioned store. And for the record I spent 14 years as a retail sales associate and manager before becoming an LEO. There is a reason they pay different. But Liberals do not care about that. It is more important to be equal regardless. So we will be seeing all the smart blue collar workers taking those no brained jobs leaving only the jobs the "no brainers" are not qualified for and no one else wants open. Yee hawm WTG guys

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Inequity, however, is a crying shame, in this country. 90% of us are so far down on the bottom, we can't see any daylight, at all.

 

And, you guys are crying about who?

 

The sun shines brightest up there where the money really is. But the chart ain't big enough to show it.

 

ineqbubbles_040512.gif

Edited by The Postman
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Aw heck Zorro ... I had a thought. Is your agenda was to make laws that put all the regular people in jail - you know those long harsh sentences you like - so that businesses could avoid the minimum wage altogether. I really didn't grasp it until you were so insistent that the only way to solve the undocumented worker issue was to throw the businessmen in jail who violate the law.

 

Folks don't realize it but by their paying for long prison terms they are creating a labor source for corporate America that can hire these workers who have been deprived of their freedom as defacto slaves.

 

No need for things like section 8 housing and corporations can earn big profits from taxpayers for housing these slaves.

 

I know it seems absurd but, hey, this is the state of American law.

 

Here is a pitch from UNICOR, the prison industries company, which offers call center services (telemarketing) for instance.

 

 

Let us be your direct line for success!

For over 80 years, UNICOR has been operating factories and employing inmates in America's correctional institutions.

After years of providing quality goods and services to federal agencies, UNICOR now has the authority to work with private sector firms that are sending their work offshore or in lieu of sending it offshore. We call it 'smart-sourcing'. Let's face it; outsourcing offshore can be a hassle. There are language barriers, monetary exchange rate concerns, time zone differences etc. And to visit your offshore operations may require a transoceanic flight. With more and more call center work being outsourced, UNICOR can provide call center support at highly competitive rates, right here in the USA!

Imagine... All the benefits of domestic outsourcing at offshore prices. It's the best kept secret in outsourcing!

Partnership Based on Experience and Performance

Under special pilot projects, we offer companies the opportunity to repatriate work to the USA. In a nutshell, you provide the software, telecom, and training, and we'll provide the facility and labor.

 

I mean when we all started this, the US incarceration rate was about average for the world. Now, with five percent of the population, we have 25% of all those jailed.

 

What most don't realize is that most inmates are put on work details. They didn't quite grasp, of course, that they were being leased out as cheap contract labor. Think how well they could depress wages by offering 'slaves' at .23 cents an hour. Why prison labor can compete with the cheapest labor in the worst countries.

 

Heck, they won't even have to pay FICA as the work doesn't create credits for social security.

 

From the IRS:http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/0526018.pdf

 

A. Whether payments made to X Workers are subject to FICA tax depends
upon whether the X Worker is employed by a State, political subdivision or a
wholly owned instrumentality, or by a private employer. If the X Worker is
employed by a State, political subdivision or a wholly owned instrumentality, the
payments are not subject to the Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) tax.
If the X Worker is employed by a private employer, the payments are subject to
FICA.
B. Payments made to X Workers are excepted from the Federal
Unemployment Tax Act (FUTA) tax.
C. Payments made to X Workers are subject to Collection of Income Tax at
Source (income tax withholding).
2. Project A employers must report the payment of wages on Form W-2, unless the
employer is eligible for section 530 relief, then the payments may be reported on Form
1099.
3. Section 530 relief is available to Project A employers that relied on Rev. Rul.
75-325 as a reasonable basis for not treating the X Workers as employees, provided the
employer also satisfies the reporting and substantive consistency rules.

 

The whole concept makes you as proud as a Georgian can be; After all, they're bringing that old Georgia institution - the chain gang - into the 21st century.

 

Of course that is just a thought.

 

pubby

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Aw heck Zorro ... I had a thought. Is your agenda was to make laws that put all the regular people in jail - you know those long harsh sentences you like - so that businesses could avoid the minimum wage altogether. I really didn't grasp it until you were so insistent that the only way to solve the undocumented worker issue was to throw the businessmen in jail who violate the law.

 

Folks don't realize it but by their paying for long prison terms they are creating a labor source for corporate America that can hire these workers who have been deprived of their freedom as defacto slaves.

 

No need for things like section 8 housing and corporations can earn big profits from taxpayers for housing these slaves.

 

I know it seems absurd but, hey, this is the state of American law.

 

Here is a pitch from UNICOR, the prison industries company, which offers call center services (telemarketing) for instance.

 

 

I mean when we all started this, the US incarceration rate was about average for the world. Now, with five percent of the population, we have 25% of all those jailed.

 

What most don't realize is that most inmates are put on work details. They didn't quite grasp, of course, that they were being leased out as cheap contract labor. Think how well they could depress wages by offering 'slaves' at .23 cents an hour. Why prison labor can compete with the cheapest labor in the worst countries.

 

Heck, they won't even have to pay FICA as the work doesn't create credits for social security.

 

From the IRS:http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/0526018.pdf

 

 

The whole concept makes you as proud as a Georgian can be; After all, they're bringing that old Georgia institution - the chain gang - into the 21st century.

 

Of course that is just a thought.

 

pubby

You keep wanting to divert the discussion from the topic of union hypocrisy. Now you have taken it to an entirely different subject all together, but I'll bite. What do you want inmates to do while they're in prison pubby; watch TV and work out in the gym all day? I've seen you and others on the left before state prison should be about rehabilitation and not punishment. Now you want to complain that when they are given jobs to perform, that's not rehabilitation; it's slavery because they get paid such a minuscule amount. I could care less they're paid only .23 an hour as they are there serving time for doing a crime; not to make a living. They're also receiving free room and board, medical care, health club benefits, free cable, a free education if they choose, and other benefits at the cost of the taxpayers. So don't expect me to have any sympathy for them because they're getting some job training and experience they can use to better their lives once they are released from prison. I suppose you would like to see prison inmates petition to be in a union.

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Aw heck, Zorro ... I wouldn't expect you to have sympathy for anyone, much less an inmate.

 

Still, I was over joyed to see your eager embrace of inmate labor. Just as we progressed by rolling right from a typical prison population of just about 400,000 in the mid 70s to over 2.4 million active inmates now, the application of policies like longer prison terms, like you propose for most activities, following your vision into the future, we might have a prison population of 24 million inmates; all of whom could work for .23 cent an hour.

 

And that is the vision I see you pursuing because you have that much sympathy for you fellow Americans.

 

That epiphany - that a future behind bars is a future you see for your fellow citizens - leads me to the next question ... what new crimes do you think we should define to make the leap from 2.4 million inmate slaves to the 24 million? I'm sure we want relatively docile inmates and of course privatization of the prisons is a must in this scenario - they can build factories - I mean prisons - that cater to the folks paying these 90 hour a week employes you can pay as little as a $0.25 an hour.

 

I think the Old Testament has some wonderful crimes that will qualify individuals for long jail terms - you know the types of crimes that people could be stoned to death for like adultery, masturbation and, of course, same sex shenanigans. And there is nothing like the Bible to justify crimes as egregious and deserving of such severe punishments.

 

Oh, and the notion that inmates will be rehabilitated with the work ... I like it that you provided that as lip service but with long hours, long sentences and the ability to treat them with less than stellar care - Did you know there is almost no enforcement of laws against forcible rape in our prisons and jails and you really expect me to think that prisons are some kind of safe-harbor??? You are funny, Z. (Inmates’ stories: Rape, squalor, riots in private prisons )

 

Of course I do feel bad ascribing the worst outcomes of what happens in prisons to be your heartfelt wish for mankind. I would not think that of anyone on pcom. I do believe, however, that if a system can be abused, it will be abused.

 

pubby

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While some believe that unions are no longer needed and have served their purpose, others believe our nation's nuclear weapons program should be done away with. How many believe both things are antiquated ideas? Thought I'd throw that out there.

 

I still see the need for both. As a wage earner I know that those of us on the bottom will only survive with unity, that is where strength comes from. People bash what the upper echelons of unions make but fail to say anything about what their non union big company execs make. The big difference is I have a better chance of running a Union than I do a retail giant.

 

While there may be laws to protect workers rights, there are also laws that forbid this and that and all types of stuff, you think the government gives a crap. Not unless they feel obligated to out of the strength of numbers. I support my economy and hate that everyone blames union pay scales on companies outsourcing work to other countries. That is from those anti union government laws. Loop holes just to keep the fat fatter and the working man paying for everyone.

 

 

I like my union, stand by my union, and for the anti union, when you can't feed your family because all our countries jobs are given to people for next to nothing you can thank the man in the mirror.

 

Stay United

Built American.

Buy American.

My dollar is for my country.

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While some believe that unions are no longer needed and have served their purpose, others believe our nation's nuclear weapons program should be done away with. How many believe both things are antiquated ideas? Thought I'd throw that out there.

 

I still see the need for both. As a wage earner I know that those of us on the bottom will only survive with unity, that is where strength comes from. People bash what the upper echelons of unions make but fail to say anything about what their non union big company execs make. The big difference is I have a better chance of running a Union than I do a retail giant.

 

While there may be laws to protect workers rights, there are also laws that forbid this and that and all types of stuff, you think the government gives a crap. Not unless they feel obligated to out of the strength of numbers. I support my economy and hate that everyone blames union pay scales on companies outsourcing work to other countries. That is from those anti union government laws. Loop holes just to keep the fat fatter and the working man paying for everyone.

 

 

I like my union, stand by my union, and for the anti union, when you can't feed your family because all our countries jobs are given to people for next to nothing you can thank the man in the mirror.

 

Stay United

Built American.

Buy American.

My dollar is for my country.

Should Americans buy a VW, BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda? After all, those companies have manufacturing sites in this country and employ tens of thousands of Americans.

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Should Americans buy a VW, BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda? After all, those companies have manufacturing sites in this country and employ tens of thousands of Americans.

 

 

American citizens are free to do whatever they please. Nobody stops a free man/woman from doing what they should, or should not, do.

Edited by The Postman
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American citizens are free to do whatever they please. Nobody stops a free man/woman from doing what they should, or should not, do.

Americans are free to purchase whatever they choose they can afford, regardless of the manufacturer. I asked the question of afewcardsshy

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El zorro, you can buy what you want, employ whom you want, hire those that make you happy, I prefer to stay true to the Red, White, and Blue. I drive a Toyota Tacoma, built in Texas. Could have bought a Union made vehicle from a Union state. My wife refused me the Ford raptor, so the Tacoma was my next choice. You see I wouldn't buy something where the labor was not paid for a fair days work. Don't think I like the idea of someone getting rich while forgetting those that made it possible.

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El zorro, you can buy what you want, employ whom you want, hire those that make you happy, I prefer to stay true to the Red, White, and Blue. I drive a Toyota Tacoma, built in Texas. Could have bought a Union made vehicle from a Union state. My wife refused me the Ford raptor, so the Tacoma was my next choice. You see I wouldn't buy something where the labor was not paid for a fair days work. Don't think I like the idea of someone getting rich while forgetting those that made it possible.

 

 

E Z, thinks negotiations belong only to the rich and powerful, like ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Council), and our government law makers. He says one man can negotiate his own wishes, with the rich and powerful, because it's becoming as illegal as as robbing a bank to have representation.

 

In other words he believes in taxation without representation. I suppose he thinks money is the only duty; sense tax is equal to duty.

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E Z, thinks negotiations belong only to the rich and powerful, like ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Council), and our government law makers. He says one man can negotiate his own wishes, with the rich and powerful, because it's becoming as illegal as as robbing a bank to have representation.

 

In other words he believes in taxation without representation. I suppose he thinks money is the only duty; sense tax is equal to duty.

Once again, you make a lot of assumptions.

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You bring up an interesting point about an increase in the minimum wage. Let's say the minimum wage goes up to $10 an hour. Does anyone actually believe those who were earning $10 an hour before the increase will get a pay raise to keep them above the minimum wage at the level they were before? Maybe a small percentage might, but a minimum wage increase is going to have a huge economic impact on businesses, especially small businesses. As I have said before, minimum wage does not decrease poverty or increase the size of the middle-class. Unions don't either.

 

A rising tide lifts all boats.

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El zorro, you can buy what you want, employ whom you want, hire those that make you happy, I prefer to stay true to the Red, White, and Blue. I drive a Toyota Tacoma, built in Texas. Could have bought a Union made vehicle from a Union state. My wife refused me the Ford raptor, so the Tacoma was my next choice. You see I wouldn't buy something where the labor was not paid for a fair days work. Don't think I like the idea of someone getting rich while forgetting those that made it possible.

You bought a Toyota - the profits go to Japan. I avoid Japanese cars mainly because the Japanese have closed their market to our US cars. Ford's profits go to Detroit - a much better choice.
Hence, my wife drives a Ford Hybrid.
The Raptor is far superior to the Toyota. And, yes, I have no use whatsoever for unions. They kill the productivity of individual workers and generally demotivate high achievers.
Edited by ApolloBeachRetiree
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From 1990-2012, 13 of the 20 states with the fastest growing median income were right-to-work states. 10 of the 15 states with the slowest growing income were from non-right-to-work states (Skorup, 2014). Granted, wages may be lower than in right-to-work states, but cost of living is also lower in most right-to-work states as well, giving them more buying power with their money. Also keep in mind how manufacturers are now choosing right-to-work states over others to locate their manufacturing to keep costs down, but that does not mean wages will remain lower in those states than in others. As the demand for labor in those states continue to increase, the available supply of labor will decline; which will increase wages. During the 1950's and 60's, many people in southern states relocated north to Detroit and other areas where the Big Three was expanding and jobs were plentiful. The south is now experiencing people relocating there from the north because of job growth. I see the trend of economic growth continuing in right-to-work states at a faster rate than non-right-to-work states.

References

 

Skorup, J. (2014, June 5). Income growth in right-to-work states significantly higher. Retrieved from http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/20161

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You bought a Toyota - the profits go to Japan. I avoid Japanese cars mainly because the Japanese have closed their market to our US cars.

 

Hence, my wife drives a Ford Hybrid.

 

The Raptor is by far superior to the Toyota. And, yes, I have no use whatsoever for unions.

 

 

If it wasn't for your union with whatever market you make money in, ABR, you'd have to do labor for a living.

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He did work for a living.

 

 

In a union, of some type,

 

Any group of people doing what God knows what is a union.

 

If you work for anyone who has a business, and has customers, you are in a union.

 

Labeling it a labor union, is fine. At least they represent you, and not the government.

Edited by The Postman
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If it wasn't for your union with whatever market you make money in, ABR, you'd have to do labor for a living.

I "labored" for more than 40 years and never, ever joined a union. Had union membership been a prereq of working for a company, I would not have sought work there. No unions for me...ever.

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I "labored" for more than 40 years and never, ever joined a union. Had union membership been a prereq of working for a company, I would not have sought work there. No unions for me...ever.

 

 

Look, ABR, do you know what a union is?

 

A union is a group of people, or a group of states, etc. etc. who have come together in some agreement to do whatever endeavor they wish to accomplish.

 

Just because a labor union represents employees, doesn't mean you were not represented in some other way. You may be a government man, and like to be represented by ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Council). Just because they call it a council, doesn't mean it's not a union. It's a fugging union, Sir!

Edited by The Postman
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Look, ABR, do you know what a union is?

 

A union is a group of people, or a group of states, etc. etc. who have come together in some agreement to do whatever endeavor they wish to accomplish.

 

Just because a labor union represents employees, doesn't mean you were not represented in some other way. You may be a government man, and like to be represented by ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Council). Just because they call it a council, doesn't mean it's not a union. It's a fugging union, Sir!

OK, in that case, let me clarify.

 

No LABOR union for me. Not ever. Never.

 

Got it?

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OK, in that case, let me clarify.

 

No LABOR union for me. Not ever. Never.

 

Got it?

 

 

Thank you, ABR!

 

But, don't ever pretend that you are not some kind of union man. Standing alone is not something anybody, but me, should do.

 

Here's why, Sir!

 

It's because I think I can.

 

Most people don't think they can stand alone in a group of other people. The only time I can't stand alone, is when a bunch of pu*** cops has me to get down, and it always takes a bunch of them to do that. :friends:

Edited by The Postman
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A lot of folks confuse median income with average income or other statistics. The median income is the income level in which half the population earns more and half earns less. To wit, the median income in this example town of 1000 households is $50,000yr. 490 people in this town live in households with $2,000/yr income, 500 people have an income of $50,000 and 10 have an income $2,000,000,000. The median income is $50,000 because the guy whose income is #500, has the median income.

 

A similar town with a median income of $10,000 might have 400 people with a $2,000/yr income; 200 with a $10,000/yr income; and 400 with a $100,000/yr income ...

 

It is a statistic ... which means it can be manipulated in a variety of ways.

 

What the statistic you cite says is that more people are earning less than previously ... i.e. the rich are getting richer.

 

From 1990-2012, 13 of the 20 states with the fastest growing median income were right-to-work states. 10 of the 15 states with the slowest growing income were from non-right-to-work states (Skorup, 2014). Granted, wages may be lower than in right-to-work states, but cost of living is also lower in most right-to-work states as well, giving them more buying power with their money. Also keep in mind how manufacturers are now choosing right-to-work states over others to locate their manufacturing to keep costs down, but that does not mean wages will remain lower in those states than in others. As the demand for labor in those states continue to increase, the available supply of labor will decline; which will increase wages. During the 1950's and 60's, many people in southern states relocated north to Detroit and other areas where the Big Three was expanding and jobs were plentiful. The south is now experiencing people relocating there from the north because of job growth. I see the trend of economic growth continuing in right-to-work states at a faster rate than non-right-to-work states.

References

 

Skorup, J. (2014, June 5). Income growth in right-to-work states significantly higher. Retrieved from http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/20161

 

 

Here's another analysis of states with right to work laws.

 

 

States with the highest rates of children in two-parent households.*

State

Utah 57%x

Minnesota 56%

Nebraska 55%x

New Jersey 54%

New Hampshire 53%

North Dakota 53%x

Massachusetts 52%

Connecticut 51%

Idaho 51%x

Iowa 51%x

 

x= right to work states

States with the lowest rates of children in two-parent households.*

State

Mississippi 32%x

Louisiana 36%x

Arkansas 37%x

Alabama 38%x

Georgia 39%x

Nevada 39%x

New Mexico 39%

Oklahoma 39%x

South Carolina 39%x

Tennessee 40%x

*Children who live with both of their married, biological parent

 

Nine of ten states with the lowest stable family structures are right to work states while six of the ten states that allow closed shops have developed cultures with high rates of stable family structures.

 

The family structure information was from this article in the NYTimes. I added the analysis of which states were right to work from a list of right to work states.

 

snip ....

 

I have no use whatsoever for unions. They kill the productivity of individual workers and generally demotivate high achievers.

 

 

High achievers typically call their unions names like "American Medical Association" or the Georgia Bar Association or the Real Estate Board. They establish their unions in law and create boards to govern them.

 

Some times unions, associations,and the like are good, sometimes they are not so good but to define them categorically as you do is a gross miscalculation.

 

pubby

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High achievers typically call their unions names like "American Medical Association" or the Georgia Bar Association or the Real Estate Board. They establish their unions in law and create boards to govern them.

 

Some times unions, associations,and the like are good, sometimes they are not so good but to define them categorically as you do is a gross miscalculation.

 

pubby

 

 

Thanks, Pubby!

 

I know you were not defending my attitude, and that it's your own.

 

ABR, on the other hand, may be of another opinion,

 

"In any event, people need representation, in this country. Without it the people who are strongly represented will run roughshod over them." ~ The Postman

Edited by The Postman
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E Z, you keep buying those Chinese products though don't you? Let me tell you about my Union, I make 29.90 an hour on my check, I have another 20 or so dollars for a package. The package includes, pension, retirement, and health benefits. I have to work 10 years to be vested for retirement, and that is accumulating 1700 work hours annually. To gain full retirement I must have 30 years of service plus my age equaling 95. I get 7 days off a year without needing to request. Any day I miss is without pay. No vacation, no sick days, or pto. To get this I had to start at 10 dollars an hour without benefits, and got an annual 10 percent raise an hour until topping out. I received over 5000 hours of classroom instruction plus twice that of ojt. I can be laid off at anytime. Tenure does not exist in my local. So you might think that unions are all about sucking the life from the companies but I get eight hours pay for my eight hours work. Oh yeah I get a 20 minute morning break paid and a thirty minute unpaid lunch. And yes my training is superior to any non union plumber. That I know. You doubt it then put your money where your mouth is. I can install any type plumbing system ever thought of, by myself. With that being said, I am the cheapest plumber you'll ever meet. I give free advice at your local home depot when I see a customer in need. E Z, you make blanket statements without knowing facts. Next time you want to bash a group you might need to find a Union carpenter to build you something to stand on.

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