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Black on Black Crime; Do You Care?


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#1 El Zorro

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 11:50 PM

A lot of people, especially those on the left are very focused on the number of black males shot by police, claiming they were shot simply because they were black.  I obtained the following data from https://www.washingt...shootings-2017/

 

So far this year, 862 people have been shot and killed by police.  195 of them were black; 160 Hispanic, 406 were white.  820 of those killed were male.  Only 50 of the 862 were unarmed, 16 of them black.  It seems to me a white person is more likely to be shot by cops than a black of color.

There were 7,881 black victims of homicide nationally in 2016.  The assailant in 90.1% of these homicides were black.  These statistics show a black person has a higher risk of being killed by another black person than by a cop.  All we hear from the left, to include quite a few here is cops are killing blacks because they're black; yet not a single word about all the blacks being killed by other blacks - a far greater number.   Keep in mind as well that only 16 blacks shot and killed by police were unarmed, the other 179 were armed.

The vast majority of these black on black murders are taking place in urban areas; Chicago having the highest rate.  So far this year, 608 people have been murdered in Chicago; 564 of them shot and another 2,677 shot and wounded.  The vast majority of victims are black and were killed by other blacks.

My God people, this is serious and something needs to be done about it.  My question is, why is the left ignoring it?


Golly gee willickers.

#2 PUBBY

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 01:06 AM

Sure we care and no we are not ignoring it.  We are doing what we can.

 

Think about what it says to every person when cops seemingly can shoot and kill an unarmed person and get a vacation for it.

 

Do those actions in any way express the necessary example that society as a whole thinks lives, including black lives have value?

 

People learn who they are in large part from the way society treats them.  It effects their self-esteem and while individuals can overcome such negative programming - the rise of the black community through the civil rights movement of the last century shows that dramatically; the impact of society on the individual cannot be denied.

 

Bottom line, if society cares less about black lives, why should we expect blacks to act in a way that cherishes their lives.

 

So, know Zorro, every time you knee-jerk your support for every instance of cops shooting and killing unarmed black suspects without so much as a smidgen of concern you are yelling at the top of your lungs that they don't count.

 

That you are oblivious to the obvious impact of the society's handling of these instances of violence by police is a testament to your lack of understanding of how people get to the point where they treat life as an expendable commodity.

 

So sure I care about that violence in the cities between members of the black community but I know that it is not appreciably worse than the way society treats them.  As I am not a member of that community but I am a member of the community that sets policy for how the police interact with that community, I can express my disdain and concern about the part of the equation I have some input.  I will continue to do so.

 

pubby



#3 Domestic Violence by Proxy

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 04:42 AM

A lot of people, especially those on the left are very focused on the number of black males shot by police, claiming they were shot simply because they were black.  I obtained the following data from https://www.washingt...shootings-2017/

 

So far this year, 862 people have been shot and killed by police.  195 of them were black; 160 Hispanic, 406 were white.  820 of those killed were male.  Only 50 of the 862 were unarmed, 16 of them black.  It seems to me a white person is more likely to be shot by cops than a black of color.

There were 7,881 black victims of homicide nationally in 2016.  The assailant in 90.1% of these homicides were black.  These statistics show a black person has a higher risk of being killed by another black person than by a cop.  All we hear from the left, to include quite a few here is cops are killing blacks because they're black; yet not a single word about all the blacks being killed by other blacks - a far greater number.   Keep in mind as well that only 16 blacks shot and killed by police were unarmed, the other 179 were armed.

The vast majority of these black on black murders are taking place in urban areas; Chicago having the highest rate.  So far this year, 608 people have been murdered in Chicago; 564 of them shot and another 2,677 shot and wounded.  The vast majority of victims are black and were killed by other blacks.

My God people, this is serious and something needs to be done about it.  My question is, why is the left ignoring it?

 

It seems you are trying to say that black people have a predisposition for committing homicide. 84% of white people are killed by other white people. The majority of homicides of any group of people is committed by people of that community. Does this mean you don't care about white on white crime? The majority of males are killed by other males. Do you not care about male on male crime?

 

 

In America, whites commit the majority of crimes. What’s even more troubling is that they are also responsible for a vast majority of violent crimes. In 2013, whites led all other groups in aggravated assault, larceny-theft, arson, weapons-carrying, and vandalism. When it comes to sexual assault, whites take the forcible rape cake. They are also more likely to kill children, the elderly, family members, their significant others, and even themselves! They commit more sex-related crimes, gang related crimes, and are more likely to kill at their places of employment. In 2013, an estimated 10,076 people died in the U.S. due to drunk driving crashes. Driving while drunk is almost exclusively a white crime because everyone knows black people prefer to drink on their porches or inside their homes.
https://www.huffingt..._b_6771878.html

 


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#4 LPPT

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:04 AM

A lot of people, especially those on the left are very focused on the number of black males shot by police, claiming they were shot simply because they were black.  I obtained the following data from https://www.washingt...shootings-2017/

 

So far this year, 862 people have been shot and killed by police.  195 of them were black; 160 Hispanic, 406 were white.  820 of those killed were male.  Only 50 of the 862 were unarmed, 16 of them black.  It seems to me a white person is more likely to be shot by cops than a black of color.

There were 7,881 black victims of homicide nationally in 2016.  The assailant in 90.1% of these homicides were black.  These statistics show a black person has a higher risk of being killed by another black person than by a cop.  All we hear from the left, to include quite a few here is cops are killing blacks because they're black; yet not a single word about all the blacks being killed by other blacks - a far greater number.   Keep in mind as well that only 16 blacks shot and killed by police were unarmed, the other 179 were armed.

The vast majority of these black on black murders are taking place in urban areas; Chicago having the highest rate.  So far this year, 608 people have been murdered in Chicago; 564 of them shot and another 2,677 shot and wounded.  The vast majority of victims are black and were killed by other blacks.

My God people, this is serious and something needs to be done about it.  My question is, why is the left ignoring it?

What many don't know is, the founders of the Black lives matter intend to address this. I read their manifesto. A part of it actually said they need to learn to treat black people in their own communities as valuable if the expect the rest of the nation to value them. It also addressed the prejudice of blacks against homosexuals and transgender in their communities.

There really is not much difference in the races when it comes to bad people. Our skin color does not make any difference. What does make a difference is culture. black people hold onto theirs. I think it can be problematic in that most of the culture is wrapped up in the negative of slavery and civil rights. I just don't think that bringing out your persecution a few times a year to relive it is positive.

 

The KKK is another group that has formed a culture from negativity and held on to it. I guess you can take everything but a person's culture. 

I don't think it is a good idea for any people to hang on to a culture of negativity. It is not just here in America either. 

The stats didn't surprise me at all. We are a violent people in general regardless of color we all own that part of our culture in America.


 

It seems you are trying to say that black people have a predisposition for committing homicide. 84% of white people are killed by other white people. The majority of homicides of any group of people is committed by people of that community. Does this mean you don't care about white on white crime? The majority of males are killed by other males. Do you not care about male on male crime?

 

 

Talk about holding up a mirror.


El Zorro

 

As far as releasing my name here, it's not going to happen.  There have been people here who found someone's given name and then found where they worked and made things difficult for them - all because they didn't like them here because of their political opinions.

 


#5 The Postman

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 10:23 AM

Christianity itself is questionable when it comes to E Z's reasonings. Questions as to the rationality, values, and motivations associated with his reasonings were mentioned in Jesus’ words, where some people prefer to “strain out the gnat” while “letting in the camel.”


"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied. ... Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings." ~ The Chief Author of our Declaration of Independence

#6 El Zorro

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 10:52 AM

Sure we care and no we are not ignoring it.  We are doing what we can.

 

Think about what it says to every person when cops seemingly can shoot and kill an unarmed person and get a vacation for it.

 

Do those actions in any way express the necessary example that society as a whole thinks lives, including black lives have value?

 

People learn who they are in large part from the way society treats them.  It effects their self-esteem and while individuals can overcome such negative programming - the rise of the black community through the civil rights movement of the last century shows that dramatically; the impact of society on the individual cannot be denied.

 

Bottom line, if society cares less about black lives, why should we expect blacks to act in a way that cherishes their lives.

 

So, know Zorro, every time you knee-jerk your support for every instance of cops shooting and killing unarmed black suspects without so much as a smidgen of concern you are yelling at the top of your lungs that they don't count.

 

That you are oblivious to the obvious impact of the society's handling of these instances of violence by police is a testament to your lack of understanding of how people get to the point where they treat life as an expendable commodity.

 

So sure I care about that violence in the cities between members of the black community but I know that it is not appreciably worse than the way society treats them.  As I am not a member of that community but I am a member of the community that sets policy for how the police interact with that community, I can express my disdain and concern about the part of the equation I have some input.  I will continue to do so.

 

pubby

It's a standard operating procedure to place a police officer on administrative leave following a shooting they are involved in.  The purpose is to prevent them from being able to interfere with the investigation.  It's a paid administrative leave because they have yet to be found guilty of any wrong-doing.  It's not a vacation as you and others are led to believe.  Most departments require the officer to remain at home between the hours of 9am-5pm so investigators have easy access to him/her during the course of the investigation.  This requirement to stay home during those hours is also why it's paid leave.  If investigators go to the officer's home during those hours and find he/she is not there, then further disciplinary action can be taken for violating the terms of the administrative leave.  If the administrative leave were not a paid leave, then the department could not require the officer to stay at home during established hours, making the officer less accessible to those conducting the investigation.  The department can also require the officer to see a psychologist or psychiatrist during the administrative leave.  It's not uncommon for a police officer who shoots another person to suffer from PTSD afterward.

You said, "Sure we care and no we are not ignoring it.  We are doing what we can."  Who is "we" and what is it "we" are doing about it?  From what I see, there isn't much being done if anything.  I have seen the issue brought up by political figures in the past, mostly conservatives, but little response from liberals on what is actually being done.

 

"Bottom line, if society cares less about black lives, why should we expect blacks to act in a way that cherishes their lives," pubby said.  So in other words you are providing an excuse for them to act violently.  Interesting.  In other words, it's excusable for gangs i.e. the Crips, Bloods, and others to establish turf territories to sell drugs, run prostitution rings, and conduct other illegal activities; as well as shoot and kill those who trespass on their turf or interfere with their illegal activities all because they feel as if society feels little about them.  Interesting.

 

It's funny how you accuse me of making a knee-jerk support for every cop involved in a shooting.  In other words, you think when a cop kills a black man, even if the black man was armed at the time the officer is guilty.  I find that very hypocritical coming from a person who thinks everything should be "fair" and who supposedly believes everyone has rights granted by the Constitution.  In reality you believe there are exceptions to who is protected by the Sixth Amendment; i.e. police officers and Republicans.

You also said, "So sure I care about that violence in the cities between members of the black community but I know that it is not appreciably worse than the way society treats them."  This sounds like you are claiming blacks shooting and killing each other is not as bad as how society treats them.  Really?  Society is treating them far worse than they are treating each other?  Please explain that one.


Golly gee willickers.

#7 El Zorro

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:54 AM

 

It seems you are trying to say that black people have a predisposition for committing homicide. 84% of white people are killed by other white people. The majority of homicides of any group of people is committed by people of that community. Does this mean you don't care about white on white crime? The majority of males are killed by other males. Do you not care about male on male crime?

 

 

What I'm saying is all lives matter regardless of the color of a person's skin or their economic background. 

The FBI Uniformed Crime Report for 2016 shows 8,383 people who were victims of murder and non-negligent manslaughter last year.  The victims were:

 

White - 3,799

Black - 4,279

American Indian or Alaska Native - 98

Asian - 101

Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander - 6

 

Percentage of those arrested for those crimes were:

White - 42.9%

Black - 54.3%

American Indian or Alaska Native - 1.6%

Asian - 1%

Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander - 0.2%

 

A 2011 National Gang Threat Assessment released by the FBI shows gangs are responsible for 40% - 90% of all violent crimes.  The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms released a report that shows 93% of guns used in crimes were obtained illegally.  The data presented was obtained from Gun Facts.

 

Most murders occur in economic depressed communities in urban areas i.e. Chicago that leads the nation in the number of homicides.  Pubby claims the people living in these communities are acting no worse than how they are treated.


Golly gee willickers.

#8 El Zorro

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:59 AM

What many don't know is, the founders of the Black lives matter intend to address this. I read their manifesto. A part of it actually said they need to learn to treat black people in their own communities as valuable if the expect the rest of the nation to value them. It also addressed the prejudice of blacks against homosexuals and transgender in their communities.

There really is not much difference in the races when it comes to bad people. Our skin color does not make any difference. What does make a difference is culture. black people hold onto theirs. I think it can be problematic in that most of the culture is wrapped up in the negative of slavery and civil rights. I just don't think that bringing out your persecution a few times a year to relive it is positive.

 

The KKK is another group that has formed a culture from negativity and held on to it. I guess you can take everything but a person's culture. 

I don't think it is a good idea for any people to hang on to a culture of negativity. It is not just here in America either. 

The stats didn't surprise me at all. We are a violent people in general regardless of color we all own that part of our culture in America.


Talk about holding up a mirror.

Here are the ten points from their manifesto:
1. End "broken windows" policing, which aggressively polices minor crimes in an attempt to stop larger ones.
2. Use community oversight for misconduct rather than having the police department decide what consequences officers should face....
3. Make standards for reporting police use of deadly force.
4. Independently investigate and prosecute police misconduct.
5. Have the racial makeup of police departments reflect the communities they serve.
6. Require officers to wear body cameras.
7. Provide more training for police officers.
8. End for-profit policing practices.
9. End the police use of military equipment.
10. Implement police union contracts that hold officers accountable for misconduct.

Nowhere in there does it address black on black murders.  It would be greatly appreciated if you could provide a link that states what you wrote.


Golly gee willickers.

#9 PUBBY

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:27 PM

It's a standard operating procedure to place a police officer on administrative leave following a shooting they are involved in.  The purpose is to prevent them from being able to interfere with the investigation.  It's a paid administrative leave because they have yet to be found guilty of any wrong-doing.  It's not a vacation as you and others are led to believe.  Most departments require the officer to remain at home between the hours of 9am-5pm so investigators have easy access to him/her during the course of the investigation.  This requirement to stay home during those hours is also why it's paid leave.  If investigators go to the officer's home during those hours and find he/she is not there, then further disciplinary action can be taken for violating the terms of the administrative leave.  If the administrative leave were not a paid leave, then the department could not require the officer to stay at home during established hours, making the officer less accessible to those conducting the investigation.  The department can also require the officer to see a psychologist or psychiatrist during the administrative leave.  It's not uncommon for a police officer who shoots another person to suffer from PTSD afterward.

You said, "Sure we care and no we are not ignoring it.  We are doing what we can."  Who is "we" and what is it "we" are doing about it?  From what I see, there isn't much being done if anything.  I have seen the issue brought up by political figures in the past, mostly conservatives, but little response from liberals on what is actually being done.

 

"Bottom line, if society cares less about black lives, why should we expect blacks to act in a way that cherishes their lives," pubby said.  So in other words you are providing an excuse for them to act violently.  Interesting.  In other words, it's excusable for gangs i.e. the Crips, Bloods, and others to establish turf territories to sell drugs, run prostitution rings, and conduct other illegal activities; as well as shoot and kill those who trespass on their turf or interfere with their illegal activities all because they feel as if society feels little about them.  Interesting.

 

It's funny how you accuse me of making a knee-jerk support for every cop involved in a shooting.  In other words, you think when a cop kills a black man, even if the black man was armed at the time the officer is guilty.  I find that very hypocritical coming from a person who thinks everything should be "fair" and who supposedly believes everyone has rights granted by the Constitution.  In reality you believe there are exceptions to who is protected by the Sixth Amendment; i.e. police officers and Republicans.

You also said, "So sure I care about that violence in the cities between members of the black community but I know that it is not appreciably worse than the way society treats them."  This sounds like you are claiming blacks shooting and killing each other is not as bad as how society treats them.  Really?  Society is treating them far worse than they are treating each other?  Please explain that one.

 

That you're asking me to parse that question is kind of silly.

 

Either you see the present circumstance - the status quo - as good or bad.  If it is bad it needs to be improved and if it is good, as you seem to suggest by your resistance to change and blow back against those who are demanding it.

 

So we know where you stand and it is squarely on the side of the status quo which you contend does not discriminate against anyone on the basis race, sex, sexual orientation or age. 

 

Most who look at the  system and its outcomes and when looking, find that discrimination exists in some cases.

 

then you come back with this comment:

 

 

What I'm saying is all lives matter regardless of the color of a person's skin or their economic background. 

The FBI Uniformed Crime Report for 2016 shows 8,383 people who were victims of murder and non-negligent manslaughter last year.  The victims were:

 

White - 3,799

Black - 4,279

American Indian or Alaska Native - 98

Asian - 101

Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander - 6

 

Percentage of those arrested for those crimes were:

White - 42.9%

Black - 54.3%

American Indian or Alaska Native - 1.6%

Asian - 1%

Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander - 0.2%

 

A 2011 National Gang Threat Assessment released by the FBI shows gangs are responsible for 40% - 90% of all violent crimes.  The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms released a report that shows 93% of guns used in crimes were obtained illegally.  The data presented was obtained from Gun Facts.

 

Most murders occur in economic depressed communities in urban areas i.e. Chicago that leads the nation in the number of homicides.  Pubby claims the people living in these communities are acting no worse than how they are treated.

 

Then you come back spouting a list of statistics that have Benjamin Disraeli say, "I told you so" about his quote there are 'lies, damn lies and statistics.'

 

I mean you have to be kidding when you say that between 40 and 93 percent of all crimes are gang related.  I guess you're counting the Republican party as a gang to come up with a ridiculous ... and that 93 percent of all guns involved in criminal activity were stolen.

 

I guess you may say that when guns are involved in domestic violence that the kid who killed his cop dad and mother 'stole' the officers service revolver that was left on the dresser or the wife who shot and killed her abusive husband 'stole the gun from him' to commit the crime.  Still, you'd just about have to say that the accountant who went crazy and shot up the country music concert  'wasn't himself' and so those guns should be considered stolen as well.

 

You get the point. Bottom line when it comes to discrimination there is one answer and that it exists.  It is generally better or at least more concealed than it was during the days of Jim Crow but we all understand that while cultures change, it takes generations. Our present time, with the re-emergence of the white nationalist movement which I sense you subscribe to one degree or another, marks the resistance to change that is expressed as conflict.

 

But bottom line, what you don't grasp is that the discrimination is insidious but evil regardless of how subtle it is.   So while the Nazi's, for instance, soon realized that shooting a Jew on the street was not good for good German citizens to witness even if they accepted the general hatred.  So while the regular German citizen in nazi Germany would recoil from the shooting of a Jew on site in the Warsaw ghetto they were oblivious if you shipped them off to a concentration camps and marched them into the gas chambers naked under the ruse of a shower. 

 

With roughly three times as many blacks incarcerated than whites, with significant concern that blacks represent an inordinate amount of stops 'just because' and the whole host of slights that are aimed at folks just because of their race, the idea is that they are not generally considered as respected members of society.  So while it is progress that even the most conservative might opine, "Oh there are some good ones, for sure and they deserve respect, the vast majority remain in their minds sub-human and not deserving of respect." 

 

That characterizes the progress - that some are good - that has been made in the attitude of many on far right that folks in the Alt-Right are fighting in their quest to make the United States an unmistakably white nationalist country. 

 

Bottom line, all you're doing is propagating the propaganda of division because you fear the diversity that is embraced by those beginning with the traditional conservatives and progressing further to the left.  This is what distinguishes the far right and alt-right and keeps them spewing their divisive propaganda.

 

pubby



#10 El Zorro

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:46 PM

 

That you're asking me to parse that question is kind of silly.

 

Either you see the present circumstance - the status quo - as good or bad.  If it is bad it needs to be improved and if it is good, as you seem to suggest by your resistance to change and blow back against those who are demanding it.

 

So we know where you stand and it is squarely on the side of the status quo which you contend does not discriminate against anyone on the basis race, sex, sexual orientation or age. 

 

Most who look at the  system and its outcomes and when looking, find that discrimination exists in some cases.

 

then you come back with this comment:

 

 

 

Then you come back spouting a list of statistics that have Benjamin Disraeli say, "I told you so" about his quote there are 'lies, damn lies and statistics.'

 

I mean you have to be kidding when you say that between 40 and 93 percent of all crimes are gang related.  I guess you're counting the Republican party as a gang to come up with a ridiculous ... and that 93 percent of all guns involved in criminal activity were stolen.

 

I guess you may say that when guns are involved in domestic violence that the kid who killed his cop dad and mother 'stole' the officers service revolver that was left on the dresser or the wife who shot and killed her abusive husband 'stole the gun from him' to commit the crime.  Still, you'd just about have to say that the accountant who went crazy and shot up the country music concert  'wasn't himself' and so those guns should be considered stolen as well.

 

You get the point. Bottom line when it comes to discrimination there is one answer and that it exists.  It is generally better or at least more concealed than it was during the days of Jim Crow but we all understand that while cultures change, it takes generations. Our present time, with the re-emergence of the white nationalist movement which I sense you subscribe to one degree or another, marks the resistance to change that is expressed as conflict.

 

But bottom line, what you don't grasp is that the discrimination is insidious but evil regardless of how subtle it is.   So while the Nazi's, for instance, soon realized that shooting a Jew on the street was not good for good German citizens to witness even if they accepted the general hatred.  So while the regular German citizen in nazi Germany would recoil from the shooting of a Jew on site in the Warsaw ghetto they were oblivious if you shipped them off to a concentration camps and marched them into the gas chambers naked under the ruse of a shower. 

 

With roughly three times as many blacks incarcerated than whites, with significant concern that blacks represent an inordinate amount of stops 'just because' and the whole host of slights that are aimed at folks just because of their race, the idea is that they are not generally considered as respected members of society.  So while it is progress that even the most conservative might opine, "Oh there are some good ones, for sure and they deserve respect, the vast majority remain in their minds sub-human and not deserving of respect." 

 

That characterizes the progress - that some are good - that has been made in the attitude of many on far right that folks in the Alt-Right are fighting in their quest to make the United States an unmistakably white nationalist country. 

 

Bottom line, all you're doing is propagating the propaganda of division because you fear the diversity that is embraced by those beginning with the traditional conservatives and progressing further to the left.  This is what distinguishes the far right and alt-right and keeps them spewing their divisive propaganda.

 

pubby

Don't blame me that you don't like the stats.  I'm not the one who compiled them; the FBI did.  You also know damn well, what the FBI refers to as gangs.  What you don't understand the 40%-90% of crimes are committed is a general statement meaning that there are certain crimes gangs are responsible of having committed and 90% of other crimes where gangs were responsible.  If you want specifics, look at the report itself.  You can read the report here.

 

I'm all for changes being made to reduce violent crimes, but a very large part of the problem is culture.  Do you agree or disagree?  Somehow the culture needs to be changed and more stringent gun laws as Chicago has proven, will not do work.  Having those who legally own guns will not reduce this violence either as most homicides are committed by those who own guns illegally.  Legal gun owners are not the problem.  If you think they are, then by all means produce facts and please cite them or else you're just pulling them out of your ass.

Before you claim that gang violence is not a cultural problem, here are some interesting reports for you to read:

https://socialproble...m/Gang Violence

https://people.misso...ngs/culture.htm

https://www.nytimes....ner-cities.html


Golly gee willickers.

#11 Glassdogs

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:55 PM

 Legal gun owners are not the problem.  If you think they are, then by all means produce facts and please cite them or else you're just pulling them out of your ass.

 

 

 

Pubby is a helpless liberal.   Don't expect him to let real facts get in the way of a feel-good cause.    Unless of course, they are made-up "facts" or blabber which supposedly substantiate the cause du jour.  


Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist".

 

 

I guess you haven't been to Detroit recently?  Or, Newark or East St.Louis or Gary, IN, or Stockton, CA?

 

You know, those bastions of liberal Democrat government that have been so successful in attracting wealthy, educated leaders and businesspeople.  Progressive people,  who have uplifted the poorer of their brethren, so their city can be that bright example of how well Socialism works.


#12 PUBBY

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 01:05 PM

I really don't have time to do a great deal of research so here is a quick one from Gabby Gifford's site.

 

 

Having a gun in the home is associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide, regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home.1  Guns kept in the home are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal unintentional shooting, criminal assault or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.2  Rather than conferring protection, guns in the home are associated with an increased risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.3

 

Research published in the New England Journal of Medicine found that living in a home where there are guns increased risk of homicide by 40 to 170% and the risk of suicide by 90 to 460%.4

 

The risk of dying from an unintentional gunshot injury is 3.7 times higher for adults living in homes with guns, with handguns in the home posing a particular threat.5

On a state-wide level, states with higher rates of household firearm ownership have been shown to have significantly higher homicide victimization rates.6

 

The footnotes in the quotes should go to the cited sources but apparently only go to the footnotes to the article.

Here are the footnotes in the article:

 

 

  1. Linda L. Dahlberg et al., Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study, 160 Am. J. Epidemiology 929, 929, 935 (2004). ⤴︎
  2. Arthur L. Kellerman et al., Injuries and Deaths Due to Firearms in the Home, 45 J. Trauma 263, 263, 266 (1998). ⤴︎
  3. Arthur L. Kellerman et al., Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home, 329 New Eng. J. Med. 1084 (1993). ⤴︎
  4. Garen J. Wintemute, Guns, Fear, the Constitution, and the Public’s Health, 358 New England J. Med. 1421-1424 (April 3, 2008), at http://www.nejm.org/...00859#t=article ) Another study in the Annals of Emergency Medicine similarly found that people who keep a gun in their home are almost twice as likely to die in a gun-related homicide and 16 times more likely to use a gun to commit suicide than people without a gun in their home. ((Douglas Wiebe, Homicide and Suicide Risks Associated with Firearms in the Home: A National Case-control Study, 41 Annals of Emergency Medicine 771 (June 2003). ⤴︎
  5. Douglas J. Wiebe, Firearms in U.S. Homes as a Risk Factor for Unintentional Gunshot Fatality, 35 Accident Analysis & Prevention 711, 713-14 (2003). ⤴︎
  6. Matthew Miller, David Hemenway, and Deborah Azrael, State-level Homicide Victimization Rates in the U.S. in Relation to Survey Measures of Household Firearm Ownership, 2001 -2003, 64 Soc. Sci. & Med. 656, 660 (2007). ⤴︎

 

pubby



#13 El Zorro

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 01:50 PM

I really don't have time to do a great deal of research so here is a quick one from Gabby Gifford's site.

 

 

The footnotes in the quotes should go to the cited sources but apparently only go to the footnotes to the article.

Here are the footnotes in the article:

 

 

pubby

Notice the article says increased risk, but does not give a number specifically stating how many actually occurred.  Again, the stats compiled from actual murders prove that more than 90% of murders are committed by illegally possessed firearms.  Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend?  When you posts articles like Gabby's, all you're trying to do is deflect from the real issue and demonstrate that you really are for laws that prohibit anyone from owning a gun.


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#14 PUBBY

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 01:57 PM

Zorro:

 

I would encourage you to read the documents you cited.

 

To wit, your general commentary is along the lines we can do nothing about guns and in regard to anything else, the prescription offered is just lock more people up.

 

In contrast, one of the articles you cited said:

 

In tackling the present crisis, it is thus a clear mistake to focus only on police brutality, and it is fatuous to attribute it all to white racism. Black policemen were involved in both the South Carolina and Baltimore killings. Coming from the inner-city majority terrorized by the thug culture minority, they are, sadly, as likely to be brutal in their policing as white officers.

 

We see this in stark detail in the chronic violence of New York’s Rikers Island correction officers, the leadership and majority of whom are black. We see it also in the maternal rage of Toya Graham, the Baltimore single mom whose abusive reprimand of her son, a video of which quickly went viral, reflects both her fear of losing him to the street and her desperate, though counterproductive, mode of rearing her fatherless son.

 

WHAT is to be done? On the police side of the crisis, there should be immediate implementation of the sensible recommendations of President Obama’s Task Force on 21st Century Policing, including more community policing; making the use of violence a last resort; greater transparency and independent investigation of all police killings; an end to racial profiling; the use of body cameras; reduced use of the police in school disputes; and fundamental changes in officer training aimed at greater knowledge of, and respect for, inner-city neighborhoods.

 

Accompanying this should be a drastic reduction in the youth incarceration rate, which President Obama can make a dent in immediately by pardoning the many thousands of nonviolent youths who have been unfairly imprisoned and whose incarceration merely increases their likelihood of becoming violent.

 

In regard to black youth, the government must begin the chemical detoxification of ghetto neighborhoods in light of the now well-documented relation between toxic exposure and youth criminality. Further, there should be an immediate scaling up of the many federal and state programs for children and youth that have been shown to work: child care from the prenatal to pre-K stages, such as Head Start and the nurse-family partnership program; after-school programs to keep boys from the lure of the street and to provide educational enrichment as well as badly needed male role models; community-based programs that focus on enhancing life skills and providing short-term, entry-level employment; and continued expansion of successful charter school systems.

 

Two things.  It is a mistake to concentrate solely on the police brutality. I agree; but that doesn't mean that policing policy gets a pass.  Indeed, it is the first real step that those who are vulnerable to recruitment by gangs will see that suggests that society in general cares.  It is also something that government can do unilaterally as LEO is hired by local government and under the direction of local policy makers.

 

Second, above someone posted a list of the things they said were the goals of the black lives movement.  If you compare that list with that of the Presidents report from the 21st Century task force on policing (link above) you'll see the prescription is virtually the same if not identical.

 

As the article excerpt posted also notes, things like the self-inflicted by the conservatives in Flint in forwarding their agenda of cost cutting at any cost, the toxicity of the communities in which these  folks are living also has to be addressed. 

 

Have any of these issues been addressed positively by any republican legislature in any state.  We've seen in Michigan, the GOP dominated legislature and governor have done nothing but exacerbate the problem literally poisoning the people.  I've seen a bit of progressive understanding in Ohio where they did expand Obamacare with the support of Gov. Kasich. But in Kansas, home of the Koch brothers empire, public services and public budgets have been slashed to make for enormous tax cuts, the value of which accrued only to folks like the Koch's as there was no trickle down.

 

The current tax cut law proposed nationally seems to be based on the importance the GOP and conservatives place upon adding zeros to the bottom line of the wealthiest folks in the country and out ... some where upwards of 50 percent of the corporate tax cuts will accrue to foreign investors outside the US. 

 

Indeed, if you actually buy all the information and proposals contained in the links you posted, you would have to back off and be critical of the tax-cut obsessed Republican legislative agendas because frankly it costs money to do things and the only thing that the republicans in congress and their administrations seem intent on doing is cutting taxes and doing nothing while ramping up the culture wars.

 

But they were good links; they didn't support your point of view nearly as much as you think, but you ought to read more and take their message to heart.

 

pubby



#15 PUBBY

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 02:07 PM

Notice the article says increased risk, but does not give a number specifically stating how many actually occurred.  Again, the stats compiled from actual murders prove that more than 90% of murders are committed by illegally possessed firearms.  Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend?  When you posts articles like Gabby's, all you're trying to do is deflect from the real issue and demonstrate that you really are for laws that prohibit anyone from owning a gun.

you're basing that figure on the dubious 'gunfacts.org' website.

 

I could say  that 89 percent of all white collar  criminal activity is conducted with GOP assistance and participation on a web site and cite a statistical compilation of the FBI to confirm it  and it would still not be true.

 

I loved some of the statistical tricks that site cited.  here is an example:

 

 

Myth: Machine guns 57 are favored by criminals

Fact: In the drug-ridden Miami of 1980, fewer than 1% of all gun homicides were with machine guns. 58

Fact: None of over 2,220 firearms recovered from crime scenes by the Minneapolis police in 1987-89 were machine guns. 59

Fact: 0.7% of seized guns in Detroit in 1991-92 were machine guns. 60

 

Of course ... what wasn't revealed was that in Miami, in 1981, 32 percent of the homicides were performed with machine guns; Minnesota police recovered in 1900 firearms from crimes in 1994 alone and 88 were machine guns or machine pistols and in Detroit in 1999, 15% of the guns recovered were machine guns. 

 

When you're cherry picking, anything is possible and that this site is doing that is obvious and is why I called bs on the figures citing Disraeli's quote about lies, damn lies and statistics.

 

pubby



#16 LPPT

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 02:14 PM

Here are the ten points from their manifesto:
1. End "broken windows" policing, which aggressively polices minor crimes in an attempt to stop larger ones.
2. Use community oversight for misconduct rather than having the police department decide what consequences officers should face....
3. Make standards for reporting police use of deadly force.
4. Independently investigate and prosecute police misconduct.
5. Have the racial makeup of police departments reflect the communities they serve.
6. Require officers to wear body cameras.
7. Provide more training for police officers.
8. End for-profit policing practices.
9. End the police use of military equipment.
10. Implement police union contracts that hold officers accountable for misconduct.

Nowhere in there does it address black on black murders.  It would be greatly appreciated if you could provide a link that states what you wrote.

I will look. It has been over a month. There were a lot of different tabs addressing different aspects. I know that the women that started it claimed it had been co-opted into dealing specifically with LE issues.


 

Pubby is a helpless liberal.   Don't expect him to let real facts get in the way of a feel-good cause.    Unless of course, they are made-up "facts" or blabber which supposedly substantiate the cause du jour.  

Such an articulate contributor to any subject discussed on here. :crazy:


El Zorro

 

As far as releasing my name here, it's not going to happen.  There have been people here who found someone's given name and then found where they worked and made things difficult for them - all because they didn't like them here because of their political opinions.

 


#17 El Zorro

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 02:27 PM

you're basing that figure on the dubious 'gunfacts.org' website.

 

I could say  that 89 percent of all white collar  criminal activity is conducted with GOP assistance and participation on a web site and cite a statistical compilation of the FBI to confirm it  and it would still not be true.

 

I loved some of the statistical tricks that site cited.  here is an example:

 

 

Of course ... what wasn't revealed was that in Miami, in 1981, 32 percent of the homicides were performed with machine guns; Minnesota police recovered in 1900 firearms from crimes in 1994 alone and 88 were machine guns or machine pistols and in Detroit in 1999, 15% of the guns recovered were machine guns. 

 

When you're cherry picking, anything is possible and that this site is doing that is obvious and is why I called bs on the figures citing Disraeli's quote about lies, damn lies and statistics.

 

pubby

That site sourced where they got the stats  or weren't you paying attention?  You could say 89% of all white collar crime...but you don't have any source to back you up, then the statement really is something you most likely pulled out of your ass.  Again, if you wish to fault the FBI, ATF and many other sources Gun Facts cited, then take it up with those agencies and tell them how wrong they are and how much smarter you are than them with "facts" you pull out of your ass.

What you failed to mention about 1981 Miami was how many of those murders were the result of Cuban gangs at war with one another over drug territories.   Any machine guns used in these shoot outs that occurred with frequency were illegally owned - again proving gun laws don't keep guns out of the hands of those who want to use them to commit crimes.


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#18 El Zorro

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 02:34 PM

Zorro:

 

I would encourage you to read the documents you cited.

 

To wit, your general commentary is along the lines we can do nothing about guns and in regard to anything else, the prescription offered is just lock more people up.

 

In contrast, one of the articles you cited said:

 

Two things.  It is a mistake to concentrate solely on the police brutality. I agree; but that doesn't mean that policing policy gets a pass.  Indeed, it is the first real step that those who are vulnerable to recruitment by gangs will see that suggests that society in general cares.  It is also something that government can do unilaterally as LEO is hired by local government and under the direction of local policy makers.

 

Second, above someone posted a list of the things they said were the goals of the black lives movement.  If you compare that list with that of the Presidents report from the 21st Century task force on policing (link above) you'll see the prescription is virtually the same if not identical.

 

As the article excerpt posted also notes, things like the self-inflicted by the conservatives in Flint in forwarding their agenda of cost cutting at any cost, the toxicity of the communities in which these  folks are living also has to be addressed. 

 

Have any of these issues been addressed positively by any republican legislature in any state.  We've seen in Michigan, the GOP dominated legislature and governor have done nothing but exacerbate the problem literally poisoning the people.  I've seen a bit of progressive understanding in Ohio where they did expand Obamacare with the support of Gov. Kasich. But in Kansas, home of the Koch brothers empire, public services and public budgets have been slashed to make for enormous tax cuts, the value of which accrued only to folks like the Koch's as there was no trickle down.

 

The current tax cut law proposed nationally seems to be based on the importance the GOP and conservatives place upon adding zeros to the bottom line of the wealthiest folks in the country and out ... some where upwards of 50 percent of the corporate tax cuts will accrue to foreign investors outside the US. 

 

Indeed, if you actually buy all the information and proposals contained in the links you posted, you would have to back off and be critical of the tax-cut obsessed Republican legislative agendas because frankly it costs money to do things and the only thing that the republicans in congress and their administrations seem intent on doing is cutting taxes and doing nothing while ramping up the culture wars.

 

But they were good links; they didn't support your point of view nearly as much as you think, but you ought to read more and take their message to heart.

 

pubby

I posted the list from the Black Lives Matter manifesto.  Where in that list does it say anything about taking action to reduce black on black violence?  It doesn't.  It's all about policing.

 

I also noticed in this post of yours, that you are attempting to change the course of discussion away from black on black violence by bringing up political issues, which have no relevancy to this discussion; something you chastised GD for in another thread.  You are such a trucking hypocrite.   I would be more than willing to discuss those issues with you, if you start another thread on them.  This topic is about black on black violence, so stick to that.  If not, you will only prove you hold conservatives here to a much higher standard than you do yourself and the liberals here.


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#19 PUBBY

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 04:17 PM

I posted the list from the Black Lives Matter manifesto.  Where in that list does it say anything about taking action to reduce black on black violence?  It doesn't.  It's all about policing.

 

I also noticed in this post of yours, that you are attempting to change the course of discussion away from black on black violence by bringing up political issues, which have no relevancy to this discussion; something you chastised GD for in another thread.  You are such a trucking hypocrite.   I would be more than willing to discuss those issues with you, if you start another thread on them.  This topic is about black on black violence, so stick to that.  If not, you will only prove you hold conservatives here to a much higher standard than you do yourself and the liberals here.

 

If it is about black on black violence then how is gang violence relevant?   

 

Well, obviously it is relevant because it influences black on black crime.  Well, so do the other issues cited as established in the links that you posted as being the basis of your opinion ... 

 

Obviously, you totally ignore your own sources ... this being from one of them you cited: 

 

 

WHAT is to be done? On the police side of the crisis, there should be immediate implementation of the sensible recommendations of President Obama’s Task Force on 21st Century Policing, including more community policing; making the use of violence a last resort; greater transparency and independent investigation of all police killings; an end to racial profiling; the use of body cameras; reduced use of the police in school disputes; and fundamental changes in officer training aimed at greater knowledge of, and respect for, inner-city neighborhoods.

 

Accompanying this should be a drastic reduction in the youth incarceration rate, which President Obama can make a dent in immediately by pardoning the many thousands of nonviolent youths who have been unfairly imprisoned and whose incarceration merely increases their likelihood of becoming violent.

 

In regard to black youth, the government must begin the chemical detoxification of ghetto neighborhoods in light of the now well-documented relation between toxic exposure and youth criminality. Further, there should be an immediate scaling up of the many federal and state programs for children and youth that have been shown to work: child care from the prenatal to pre-K stages, such as Head Start and the nurse-family partnership program; after-school programs to keep boys from the lure of the street and to provide educational enrichment as well as badly needed male role models; community-based programs that focus on enhancing life skills and providing short-term, entry-level employment; and continued expansion of successful charter school systems.

 

Are you too dense not to know, for instance, that the aspect of change in policing was considered only one aspect?  Are you unable to make the connection between the recommendation in the article you cited that referenced "the chemical detoxification of ghetto neighborhoods" (bolded above) as being a reference to locales like Flint Michigan and the shortsighted decision to use water that was chemically caustic enough to dissolve the lead in the water distribution system of Flint causing a rapid increase to toxic levels of lead in the water? 

 

The guy who wrote that piece, BTW, was obviously not a left-wing sycophant as he is pitching 'charter school systems' and I might even agree in some instances as improved public education is the goal.   

 

So I refute your 'no relevancy' shtick and say your criticism is total and utter BS.  All these factors are totally relevant and it is just your pea brain that is incapable of grasping that.  

 

Fact is, if you read the articles you linked as establishing your case, you'd quickly recognize the study of gangs went into depth on how tribalism is a key element of gang and gang-like violent behaviors.  That means it is relevant to draw an association with the alt-right and emerging tribalism exhibited by those groups which, if the trends continue, speaks to a likely increased danger of violence.  Indeed, one might suggest there is already evidence of the impact of this political tribalism by the far right as expressed in the Charlottesville incident a month or so ago. 

 

What is not relevant in this discussion or even the discussion of the lolita-loving fantasy world of Roy Moore in his 30s are Hillary Clinton's emails or the babes that Bill bedded in Little Rock or that Barack Obama had a stiffy on AF1.  Your inability to grasp what is relevant and irrelevant obviously is challenged by your politics and tribal affiliation. 

 

pubby



#20 The Postman

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 10:12 PM

You are indeed an idiot.

 

 

You have mentioned that you back up what you say with facts, E Z! As a matter of fact, an idiot has the mind of a 3-year-old child or less. Pubby is not that unintelligible.  


"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied. ... Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings." ~ The Chief Author of our Declaration of Independence

#21 Glassdogs

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 10:23 PM

 

 

You have mentioned that you back up what you say with facts, E Z! As a matter of fact, an idiot has the mind of a 3-year-old child or less. Pubby is not that unintelligible.  

 

It's really scary when YOU make more sense than Pubby.    8)


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Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist".

 

 

I guess you haven't been to Detroit recently?  Or, Newark or East St.Louis or Gary, IN, or Stockton, CA?

 

You know, those bastions of liberal Democrat government that have been so successful in attracting wealthy, educated leaders and businesspeople.  Progressive people,  who have uplifted the poorer of their brethren, so their city can be that bright example of how well Socialism works.


#22 CitizenCain

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:43 PM

What I'm saying is all lives matter regardless of the color of a person's skin or their economic background. 

 

 

Oh please it didn't take a psychic to understand what this post is about you just had to back up a few steps when DVP pointed out the foolishness of your argument . 

 

 

 

It seems you are trying to say that black people have a predisposition for committing homicide. 84% of white people are killed by other white people. The majority of homicides of any group of people is committed by people of that community. Does this mean you don't care about white on white crime? The majority of males are killed by other males. Do you not care about male on male crime?

 

 


Edited by CitizenCain, 15 November 2017 - 07:08 AM.

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"Every critic, every detractor, will have to bow down to President Trump,"
 
 

 
 

 

#23 El Zorro

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:33 AM

I really don't have time to do a great deal of research so here is a quick one from Gabby Gifford's site.

 

 

The footnotes in the quotes should go to the cited sources but apparently only go to the footnotes to the article.

Here are the footnotes in the article:

 

 

pubby

Isn't that the way Wiki does it?


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#24 The Postman

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:40 AM

Isn't that the way Wiki does it?

 

 

If you started dipping your Wiki, a little, E Z, you could probably do a better job communicating everywhere else. 


"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied. ... Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings." ~ The Chief Author of our Declaration of Independence

#25 El Zorro

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:50 AM

 

Oh please it didn't take a psychic to understand what this post is about you just had to back up a few steps when DVP pointed out the foolishness of your argument . 

 

 

If you recall when the Black Lives Matter organization started, I was saying all lives matter.  The purpose of this post was because you on the left keep claiming cops are killing black males simply because they are black.  I provided statistics released in the FBI UCR that showed more white males are killed in a year by cops than black males are.  The stats also showed that last year of the blacks who were killed, all were armed except for 16.  The stats also showed far more blacks are killed by blacks than any other race or occupation.  Other statistics I brought into the discussion show that gangs are responsible for up to 90% of violent crimes.  Pubby chose to challenge why I brought gangs into the discussion.  Where do most gangs operate?  Primarily in the impoverished communities in urban areas where black on black violence is the highest.

In this discussion LPPT stated she had read the Black Lives Matter manifesto claiming it addresses black on black violence, but the 10 points of that manifesto (which I provided) only address policing issues.  I also brought into this discussion research articles that violent crimes are a cultural problem.


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#26 LPPT

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:01 AM

Here are the ten points from their manifesto:
1. End "broken windows" policing, which aggressively polices minor crimes in an attempt to stop larger ones.
2. Use community oversight for misconduct rather than having the police department decide what consequences officers should face....
3. Make standards for reporting police use of deadly force.
4. Independently investigate and prosecute police misconduct.
5. Have the racial makeup of police departments reflect the communities they serve.
6. Require officers to wear body cameras.
7. Provide more training for police officers.
8. End for-profit policing practices.
9. End the police use of military equipment.
10. Implement police union contracts that hold officers accountable for misconduct.

Nowhere in there does it address black on black murders.  It would be greatly appreciated if you could provide a link that states what you wrote.

 

 

I had to go way back to my friend's history to find this. We often engage in these debates and I learn from them. She is college educated and has a very successful tutoring business. She lost a nephew to black on black violence a few years ago. We disagree on the fostering culture issue.

I have so much respect for her and can ask her anything. She is making a difference in the black community by raising children up, tutoring them, preparing them for college someday. She is a strong black woman.

 

There is a lot on this website, I still have not read it all.

 

https://blacklivesma...om/about/staff/


El Zorro

 

As far as releasing my name here, it's not going to happen.  There have been people here who found someone's given name and then found where they worked and made things difficult for them - all because they didn't like them here because of their political opinions.

 


#27 El Zorro

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:36 AM

 

 

I had to go way back to my friend's history to find this. We often engage in these debates and I learn from them. She is college educated and has a very successful tutoring business. She lost a nephew to black on black violence a few years ago. We disagree on the fostering culture issue.

I have so much respect for her and can ask her anything. She is making a difference in the black community by raising children up, tutoring them, preparing them for college someday. She is a strong black woman.

 

There is a lot on this website, I still have not read it all.

 

https://blacklivesma...om/about/staff/

I'm looking at the website and I have not found anything that address black on black violent crime.  I did find this:

Black Lives Matter is an ideological and political intervention in a world where Black lives are systematically and intentionally targeted for demise. It is an affirmation of Black folks’ humanity, our contributions to this society, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression.

 

Now if you can find on their website where it states they are addressing measures to reduce black on black violence, by all means share it with the rest of us.

 

I also found this:
 

Four years ago, what is now known as the Black Lives Matter Global Network began to organize. It started out as a chapter-based, member-led organization whose mission was to build local power and to intervene when violence was inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes.

 

In the years since, we’ve committed to struggling together and to imagining and creating a world free of anti-Blackness, where every Black person has the social, economic, and political power to thrive.

 


Edited by El Zorro, 15 November 2017 - 10:40 AM.

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#28 LPPT

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 11:33 AM

I'm looking at the website and I have not found anything that address black on black violent crime.  I did find this:

Now if you can find on their website where it states they are addressing measures to reduce black on black violence, by all means share it with the rest of us.

 

I also found this:
 

Why is that significant to you? Don't you believe they have any reason for this?  I believe they should be more vigilant than ever. In fact, I believe that all non-whites need to be extremely vigilant as long as Trump is in office. I have seen cases where I thought their protest of unfairness by LE was not warranted. I have also seen many where it was. I repeatedly see finger pointing at minorities and queer people as the cause of problems we face in this country. On top of that many see them as their political enemy because they vote democrat.

 

There is still a lot of anger towards black people in this country. They have been emboldened by Trump.


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El Zorro

 

As far as releasing my name here, it's not going to happen.  There have been people here who found someone's given name and then found where they worked and made things difficult for them - all because they didn't like them here because of their political opinions.

 


#29 LPPT

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 11:39 AM

I'm looking at the website and I have not found anything that address black on black violent crime.  I did find this:

Now if you can find on their website where it states they are addressing measures to reduce black on black violence, by all means share it with the rest of us.

 

I also found this:
 

That is how I read healing justice.


El Zorro

 

As far as releasing my name here, it's not going to happen.  There have been people here who found someone's given name and then found where they worked and made things difficult for them - all because they didn't like them here because of their political opinions.

 


#30 PUBBY

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 11:42 AM

Maybe we should think about this issue less in big cultural terms that imply racism or other hot-button issues as the cause and look at it like a public health issue instead.

 

Golly gee willickers. Zorro: 

 

 

(From the Journal of the American Medical Association network.)

 

 

Question  Does gun violence spread over social networks through a process of social contagion?

 

Findings  An epidemiological analysis of a network of 138 163 individuals in Chicago, Illinois, determined that social contagion was responsible for 63.1% of the 11 123 gunshot violence episodes that occurred between 2006 and 2014. Models incorporating social contagion and demographics (eg, age, sex, and neighborhood residence) predicted future gunshot subjects better than models based on social contagion or demographics alone.

 

Meaning  Violence prevention efforts that account for social contagion, in addition to demographics, have the potential to prevent more shootings than efforts that focus only on demographics.

 

Abstract
 

Importance  Every day in the United States, more than 200 people are murdered or assaulted with a firearm. Little research has considered the role of interpersonal ties in the pathways through which gun violence spreads.

 

Objective  To evaluate the extent to which the people who will become subjects of gun violence can be predicted by modeling gun violence as an epidemic that is transmitted between individuals through social interactions.

 

Design, Setting, and Participants  This study was an epidemiological analysis of a social network of individuals who were arrested during an 8-year period in Chicago, Illinois, with connections between people who were arrested together for the same offense. Modeling of the spread of gunshot violence over the network was assessed using a probabilistic contagion model that assumed individuals were subject to risks associated with being arrested together, in addition to demographic factors, such as age, sex, and neighborhood residence. Participants represented a network of 138 163 individuals who were arrested between January 1, 2006, and March 31, 2014 (29.9% of all individuals arrested in Chicago during this period), 9773 of whom were subjects of gun violence. Individuals were on average 27 years old at the midpoint of the study, predominantly male (82.0%) and black (75.6%), and often members of a gang (26.2%).

 

Main Outcomes and Measures  Explanation and prediction of becoming a subject of gun violence (fatal or nonfatal) using epidemic models based on person-to-person transmission through a social network.

 

Results  Social contagion accounted for 63.1% of the 11 123 gunshot violence episodes; subjects of gun violence were shot on average 125 days after their infector (the person most responsible for exposing the subject to gunshot violence). Some subjects of gun violence were shot more than once. Models based on both social contagion and demographics performed best; when determining the 1.0% of people (n = 1382) considered at highest risk to be shot each day, the combined model identified 728 subjects of gun violence (6.5%) compared with 475 subjects of gun violence (4.3%) for the demographics model (53.3% increase) and 589 subjects of gun violence (5.3%) for the social contagion model (23.6% increase)

.

Conclusions and Relevance  Gunshot violence follows an epidemic-like process of social contagion that is transmitted through networks of people by social interactions. Violence prevention efforts that account for social contagion, in addition to demographics, have the potential to prevent more shootings than efforts that focus on only demographics.

 

pubby



#31 El Zorro

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:05 PM

Maybe we should think about this issue less in big cultural terms that imply racism or other hot-button issues as the cause and look at it like a public health issue instead.

 

Golly gee willickers. Zorro: 

 

 

(From the Journal of the American Medical Association network.)

 

 

pubby

Social contagion is defined as "the spread of affect or behavior from one crowd participant to another; one person serves as the stimulus for the imitative actions of another."  Sounds to me how many cultures are developed.


Golly gee willickers.

#32 El Zorro

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:09 PM

Why is that significant to you? Don't you believe they have any reason for this?  I believe they should be more vigilant than ever. In fact, I believe that all non-whites need to be extremely vigilant as long as Trump is in office. I have seen cases where I thought their protest of unfairness by LE was not warranted. I have also seen many where it was. I repeatedly see finger pointing at minorities and queer people as the cause of problems we face in this country. On top of that many see them as their political enemy because they vote democrat.

 

There is still a lot of anger towards black people in this country. They have been emboldened by Trump.

You're the one who brought the BLM manifesto into the discussion claiming it addresses black on black violence.


That is how I read healing justice.

How does healing justice apply to black on black violence?


Golly gee willickers.

#33 PUBBY

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:17 PM

Social contagion is defined as "the spread of affect or behavior from one crowd participant to another; one person serves as the stimulus for the imitative actions of another."  Sounds to me how many cultures are developed.

 

Only if you believe that culture is a virus.

 

pubby



#34 PUBBY

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 01:33 PM

Actually culture is more like DNA and the virus of violence in this case is based on an inherent weakness in the culture.

 

What is the culture is the first question.

 

A good part of it is the early programming most of  us had that we're kind of like cowboys, rough, tough, independent and we don't take cheeze off no one.  You know what I'm speaking of.  This cultural model of the American male has been hyped politically since Ronald Reagan, a 'cowboy' movie star and host of the General Electric theater that featured westerns and also had 20 mule team Borax as a sponsor became president.

 

There is obvious good things about this model which could be summed as establishing the idea of the responsible individualist. 

 

The problem is when you crowd way to many individualists many trying to establish dominance over others which is very touch in a crowded urban environment.  As the documents you linked yesterday point out, this creates a need for folks to have your back and this need creates the basis for gangs.

 

Because gangs are based on conglomerations of individuals who ascribe to the broader cultural ideal of the individual who should not be dissed ... when they are ... the gang culture justifies the group being violent to address the disrespecting entity; ie.rival gang.

 

Like the US and Soviets in the cold war, when one gang gets armed, the other has to arm its self with even more capable arms.  The result is escalating violence just like we have.

 

The point is that the societies perception of men; the same perception that resulted in the passage of the carry anywhere laws and stand your ground laws for gun ownership as behind the unwillingness for a man not to reply to violence with violence.   Elements like gang membership and peer pressure just make the act of revenge and retaliation more certain than if the individual were actually acting individually.

 

But just like Rand Paul's neighbor, who was apparently pissed because of where Rand blew his leaves and felt dissed over that and other things like Rand riding his mower on his land, have little option but to act to maintain their ego.

 

What treating this like a public health issue does is give those who intervene a strategy to break the circle of violence. The remedy is to show them other ways that they can maintain self respect.

 

The viral epidemic model does one other thing.  It identifies the people in the community and determines with a little thinking or algorithms, who is going to be the one person tapped to respond to a shooting or murder and lets authorities preemptively intercede.

 

This approach actually doesn't change culture; it just provides those reacting in culturally relevant ways, other alternatives to the all-too-easy pick up a gun and kill the mf response to being disrespected.

 

pubby



#35 El Zorro

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 01:35 PM

 

Only if you believe that culture is a virus.

 

pubby

Social issues influence culture.  Prove that a virus spreads the urge for people to kill one another.


Edited by El Zorro, 15 November 2017 - 01:35 PM.

Golly gee willickers.

#36 rednekkhikkchikk

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:36 PM

My God people, this is serious and something needs to be done about it.

 

The very least you could do is offer a solution of your own. 

 

If you were sincerely concerned, that is.  


"There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion". - Sir Francis Bacon

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#37 PUBBY

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 12:03 AM

The very least you could do is offer a solution of your own. 

 

If you were sincerely concerned, that is.  

 

He's not (that was zorros' quote from the original post).  He is all about dividing and conquering and figures he can figure a way to split the left by talking about black on black crime as something folks don't care about. 

 

It is a propaganda technique.

 

pubby



#38 El Zorro

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:11 AM

 

He's not (that was zorros' quote from the original post).  He is all about dividing and conquering and figures he can figure a way to split the left by talking about black on black crime as something folks don't care about. 

 

It is a propaganda technique.

 

pubby

Not true at all.  I'm very concerned about black on black violence and statistics show it's increasing.  More black males are killed by other black males each year than police officers.  The people on the left seem to ignore the black on black violence and concentrate their focus on how many black males are killed each year by police officers and claiming the black males were shot simply for being black. The left seems to be using the issue for the purpose of creating division in the country that could lead to anarchy.  I don't understand how someone who claims to be an intelligent person looks for reasons to excuse black on black violence as you do.  A virus, really?

You stated cultural problems stem from DNA.  Obviously you have no clue how culture is formed or even changed.  Your attitude towards the issue of increasing black on black violence indicated to me that you're fine with it, as you continue to make excuses for it.  Perhaps you should spend some time doing research on how culture is developed and changed.


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Golly gee willickers.

#39 Glassdogs

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:36 AM

  Perhaps you should spend some time doing research on how culture is developed and changed.

 

I disagree.   Every time he does any "research",  we get bombarded with a 8,000 word synopsis of his misunderstanding of the facts,  resplendent with charts and graphs and footnotes.    Pretty soon, his island will be so full of "facts" that it will tip over and capsize.   :crazy:


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Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist".

 

 

I guess you haven't been to Detroit recently?  Or, Newark or East St.Louis or Gary, IN, or Stockton, CA?

 

You know, those bastions of liberal Democrat government that have been so successful in attracting wealthy, educated leaders and businesspeople.  Progressive people,  who have uplifted the poorer of their brethren, so their city can be that bright example of how well Socialism works.


#40 El Zorro

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:50 AM

That is how I read healing justice.

It has nothing to do with them addressing black on black violence.


 

I disagree.   Every time he does any "research",  we get bombarded with a 8,000 word synopsis of his misunderstanding of the facts,  resplendent with charts and graphs and footnotes.    Pretty soon, his island will be so full of "facts" that it will tip over and capsize.   :crazy:

That's because he researches nothing but liberal sites that give him stupid "talking points."  If he really wants to know how culture works and evolves, he needs to read some peer reviewed research on it.


Golly gee willickers.




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