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Morality as taught in the IVY LEAGUE - FOR REAL


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Poll: Are the Libertarians RIGHT? (19 member(s) have cast votes)

It is unjust for the government to require people wear seat belts?

  1. Yes (8 votes [42.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.11%

  2. No (11 votes [57.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 57.89%

Should people be free to hurt or kill themselves, provided their actions do not violate anyone’s else rights?

  1. Yes (15 votes [78.95%])

    Percentage of vote: 78.95%

  2. No (4 votes [21.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.05%

Should the government legalize narcotics? After all, some adults want to use drugs privately.

  1. Yes (8 votes [42.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.11%

  2. No (11 votes [57.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 57.89%

Should the government legalize prostitution? After all, some adults want to buy and sell sex.

  1. Yes (12 votes [63.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 63.16%

  2. No (7 votes [36.84%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.84%

hould there be a minimum wage? What if employers want to pay people $1.25 per hour, and some desperately poor people would work for that wage? Is the government being unjust by requiring employers to pay them at least $7.25 per hour?

  1. Yes (11 votes [57.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 57.89%

  2. No (8 votes [42.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.11%

Should the government impose occupational safety standards? What if employers refuse to spend money on safety measures, and some desperately poor people would agree to work in dangerous conditions. Should the government prohibit those contracts?

  1. Yes (13 votes [68.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 68.42%

  2. No (6 votes [31.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.58%

Is it just to tax the rich to give to the poor? Should the government tax Bill Gates and other wealthy people and use the money to supplement the income of unemployed people, single mothers with low incomes, or other poor people?

  1. Yes (4 votes [21.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.05%

  2. No (15 votes [78.95%])

    Percentage of vote: 78.95%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 PUBBY

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 02:03 PM

Welcome to part three of the morality and justice course taught by Micheal Sandel of Harvard. This episode promises to be a barn-burner as it confronts the divide that exists between libertarians and Utilitarians. Libertarians say individual rights are sacrosanct and assert if one man had a million loaves of bread and there were a million people starving, because the bread is his, he has no obligation - moral or otherwise - to feed the hungry.

In terms of those little known facts, this professor and online course was adapted to a Japanese audience and ultimately has become a hit in the far east including China.

One of the reasons they seek this literal 'socratic teaching method' is because it is so different from the rote memory approaches that focus on technical aspects of business, math and science. What those in China and Japan see in this 'class' is the idea of thinking in ways that are not proscribed. Rather, it is in their mind, maybe the way that we in America approach education - our openness and willingness to think about puzzling hypothetical situations that accounts for Americans remaining at the top of the heap when it comes to innovation. In short they see this as a way to teach their people how to think out of the box.

Following is episode 3 which is teased witih humorous references to Bill Gates and Michael Jordan.



Here are excerpts of the study guide.

Episode 3 – Discussion Guide (Beginner)

Utilitarians think that the right thing to do is whatever produces the greatest amount of happiness. Libertarians disagree. They think that we must never violate anyone’s rights—even if doing so would increase overall happiness.

According to libertarians, the greatest threat to individual rights comes from the government. You should be able to drive without a seat belt if you want. The government has no business giving you a ticket. That’s unacceptably paternalist. And if you want to use drugs or engage in deviant sexual practices, you should be free to do so, provided you don’t violate anyone else’s rights in the process. The government has no business passing moralistic legislation. It shouldn’t tell you how to live your life. Most importantly, the government should never tax for redistributive purposes. Redistributive taxation is theft. Taking your earnings and giving it to other people is like forcing you to work for those people. Libertarians say it’s almost like slavery. Libertarians make strong claims. But are they right about rights?

Is it unjust for the government to require people to wear seat belts and to prohibit them from engaging in other self-endangering activities? What if we know that many more people will die without such legislation? Should people be free to hurt or kill themselves, provided their actions do not violate anyone’s else rights?
Should the government legalize narcotics? After all, some adults want to use drugs privately.
Should the government legalize prostitution? After all, some adults want to buy and sell sex.
Should there be a minimum wage? What if employers want to pay people $1.25 per hour, and some desperately poor people would work for that wage? Is the government being unjust by requiring employers to pay them at least $7.25 per hour?
Should the government impose occupational safety standards? What if employers refuse to spend money on safety measures, and some desperately poor people would agree to work in dangerous conditions. Should the government prohibit certain contracts that some workers and employers would be willing to make, and insist on safe working conditions?
Is it just to tax the rich to pay for public services? Should the government tax Bill Gates and other wealthy people and use the money to pay for public schools, hospitals, roads, parks, fire departments, and police departments, or would all of that be unjust?
Is it just to tax the rich to give to the poor? Should the government tax Bill Gates and other wealthy people and use the money to supplement the income of unemployed people, single mothers with low incomes, or other poor people? Should the government tax rich people and loan the money, interest-free, to poor kids so that they can go to college? Would all of that be unjust? Why?



#2 Starr & Dru's Nana

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 03:05 PM

I have got to go back through and watch all three episodes. This is fascinating.

In loving memory of Mason (December 1, 2001 to December 9, 2001) and Ashley  Jr. (December 1, 2001 to December 2, 2001

 

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#3 Starr & Dru's Nana

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 03:13 PM

I just noticed that these are a production of WGBH in Boston. I wonder if PBS is planning on carrying these?

Got 'em bookmarked and can go back and watch them all, which I will do. Again, absolutely fascinating.

Thanks Pubby for putting these up for us to consider.

In loving memory of Mason (December 1, 2001 to December 9, 2001) and Ashley  Jr. (December 1, 2001 to December 2, 2001

 

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#4 gog8tors

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 05:02 PM

I will admit to being the poll troll on these. Hey look at it this way Pubby at least they aren't months old. :rofl:




#5 The Postman

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 05:06 PM

I just noticed that these are a production of WGBH in Boston. I wonder if PBS is planning on carrying these?

Got 'em bookmarked and can go back and watch them all, which I will do. Again, absolutely fascinating.

Thanks Pubby for putting these up for us to consider.


Some people, S % D's N, will view this as the same old thing, over, and over, and over, and over, and over, again! They will not be aware of the diversity within these hours of discussion.

I want to thank you for seeing the good in these discussions. :drinks:
"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied. ... Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings." ~ The Chief Author of our Declaration of Independence

#6 ca2ga

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 07:21 PM

Awesome! A nanny state poll from a liberal ivy league elitist hypocrite espousing how we should live our lives.

#7 The Postman

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 07:49 PM

Awesome! A nanny state poll from a liberal ivy league elitist hypocrite espousing how we should live our lives.


I don't see anyone twisting your arm, ca2ga!

Where did the so call hypocrite instruct anyone on how they should live their lives. All I saw, and heard, him do is tell a story, and then ask questions of the students. Did he mention that people should do this or that? Did he mention which of the various philosophies, he talked about, was the ones people should adhere to? :pardon:
"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied. ... Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings." ~ The Chief Author of our Declaration of Independence

#8 PUBBY

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 07:56 PM

I don't see anyone twisting your arm, ca2ga!

Where did the so call hypocrite instruct anyone on how they should live their lives. All I saw, and heard, him do is tell a story, and then ask questions of the students. Did he mention that people should do this or that? Did he mention which of the various philosophies, he talked about, was the ones people should adhere to? :pardon:


He didn't. Some people value education; benefit from it.

Others disparage it, wish to cut funding for it and resent the fact that others disagree.

pubby

#9 The Postman

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 08:07 PM

He didn't. Some people value education; benefit from it.

Others disparage it, wish to cut funding for it and resent the fact that others disagree.

pubby


Some people don't find moral character very important, PUBBY! In fact they don't want an ethics commission interfering with what they want to do, here in the State of Georgia. If they want to hang a bunch of teachers they hate the fact that due process of law has to be considered. :pardon:
"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied. ... Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings." ~ The Chief Author of our Declaration of Independence

#10 ca2ga

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 08:26 PM

He didn't. Some people value education; benefit from it.

Others disparage it, wish to cut funding for it and resent the fact that others disagree.

pubby


Haha touché Pub! Not sure where you pulled that from. Sorry if you felt threaten for putting my 2 cents in. I think there's nothing greater then a higher education. From my experience at my 4 years at Berkley I wouldn't trade it for the world.

It prepared me for the world that I knew could be a better place. If people wouldn't get in their own way. I was also smart enough to know the difference between critical thought and BS artists. So just relax a bit and know that questioned of others and their ideals, no matter how bizarre, should be welcomed.

Some people don't find moral character very important, PUBBY! In fact they don't want an ethics commission interfering with what they want to do, here in the State of Georgia. If they want to hang a bunch of teachers they hate the fact that due process of law has to be considered. :pardon:

Moral character is subjective. Seems it only applies to you and your libereral cohorts. Anyone else. Not so much.

#11 The Postman

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:45 PM

Haha touché Pub! Not sure where you pulled that from. Sorry if you felt threaten for putting my 2 cents in. I think there's nothing greater then a higher education. From my experience at my 4 years at Berkley I wouldn't trade it for the world.

It prepared me for the world that I knew could be a better place. If people wouldn't get in their own way. I was also smart enough to know the difference between critical thought and BS artists. So just relax a bit and know that questioned of others and their ideals, no matter how bizarre, should be welcomed.


Moral character is subjective. Seems it only applies to you and your libereral cohorts. Anyone else. Not so much.



It's subjective when there is no ethics commission, for sure. The so call hypocrite, you mentioned, does not advocate ethical relativism as an acceptable moral theory.

My opinion is moral to me. Your opinion is moral to you. I don't live in this country to live up to your expectations, and you don't live in this country to live up to mine. If I were you I would feel exactly as you do!
"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied. ... Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings." ~ The Chief Author of our Declaration of Independence

#12 PUBBY

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:49 PM

Haha touché Pub! Not sure where you pulled that from. Sorry if you felt threaten for putting my 2 cents in. I think there's nothing greater then a higher education. From my experience at my 4 years at Berkley I wouldn't trade it for the world.

It prepared me for the world that I knew could be a better place. If people wouldn't get in their own way. I was also smart enough to know the difference between critical thought and BS artists. So just relax a bit and know that questioned of others and their ideals, no matter how bizarre, should be welcomed.


Moral character is subjective. Seems it only applies to you and your libereral cohorts. Anyone else. Not so much.


I actually wrote it.

Glad to see the challenge enticed you to state your appreciation for education. I'm used to interacting with those whose political orthodoxy includes repeal of laws creating the US Dept. of Education.

Finally, with something like 3.4 million posts over the years, we've got a pretty broad group of posters.

pubby

#13 The Postman

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 07:05 AM

I actually wrote it.

Glad to see the challenge enticed you to state your appreciation for education. I'm used to interacting with those whose political orthodoxy includes repeal of laws creating the US Dept. of Education.

Finally, with something like 3.4 million posts over the years, we've got a pretty broad group of posters.

pubby



And, you don't call them hypocrites just because their beliefs are different than yours, PUBBY! :pardon:
"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied. ... Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings." ~ The Chief Author of our Declaration of Independence

#14 ca2ga

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 10:04 AM

I actually wrote it.

Glad to see the challenge enticed you to state your appreciation for education. I'm used to interacting with those whose political orthodoxy includes repeal of laws creating the US Dept. of Education.

Finally, with something like 3.4 million posts over the years, we've got a pretty broad group of posters.

pubby


And I'm used to the battle of wits with those that think career politicians make better decisions over your life then yourself. You and your postman will lose everytime.

Your argument about the department of education only reinforces the sense that money solves problems. Despite the fact the more money they get the quality of education declines.

But the facts never get in the way for the brainwashed liberal progressives.
  • really gone from here likes this

#15 The Postman

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 10:21 AM

And I'm used to the battle of wits with those that think career politicians make better decisions over your life then yourself. You and your postman will lose everytime.

Your argument about the department of education only reinforces the sense that money solves problems. Despite the fact the more money they get the quality of education declines.

But the facts never get in the way for the brainwashed liberal progressives.


I'm not interested in he win/lose idea of being an American. That's okay in sports. But, In everyday life, I like the win/win scenario. If I help others win, I win too. :drinks:
"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied. ... Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings." ~ The Chief Author of our Declaration of Independence

#16 ca2ga

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 10:33 AM

I'm not interested in he win/lose idea of being an American. That's okay in sports. But, In everyday life, I like the win/win scenario. If I help others win, I win too. :drinks:


You mean as long as it subscribes to your progressive belief system. It must feel awkward to witness the epic failure of the worst progressive liberal president since Jimmy Carter.

#17 The Postman

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 12:38 PM

You mean as long as it subscribes to your progressive belief system. It must feel awkward to witness the epic failure of the worst progressive liberal president since Jimmy Carter.


The word liberal, like you refer to the President being, describes in itself that he doesn't have the conservative FEAR of displeasing others.

Conservatives have been conditioned to relinquish their power to the not so stupid upper class conservatives of which only about 10%, or so are are in the upper class. The stupid conservatives think it is essential to their survival to go along with the upper class, because otherwise they would jeopardize their jobs and income and therefore their ability to maintain food and shelter.
"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied. ... Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings." ~ The Chief Author of our Declaration of Independence

#18 ca2ga

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 01:33 PM

Like I said before, time to up the dosage.

#19 The Postman

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 01:51 PM

Would that be a time of satisfaction, and pleasure, for you, ca2ga?

"He who seeks for applause only from without has all his happiness in another's keeping." ~ Goldsmith
"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied. ... Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings." ~ The Chief Author of our Declaration of Independence

#20 PUBBY

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 02:09 PM

And I'm used to the battle of wits with those that think career politicians make better decisions over your life then yourself. You and your postman will lose everytime.

Your argument about the department of education only reinforces the sense that money solves problems. Despite the fact the more money they get the quality of education declines.


But the facts never get in the way for the brainwashed liberal progressives.


I might have thought you'd have started using the 'brainwashed Marxist multiculturalists' given the publicity that rendering of liberalism has been receiving lately. I mean some time soon the term brainwashed liberal progressives will just start seeming trite, don't you think.

pubby

#21 ca2ga

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 02:15 PM

I might have thought you'd have started using the 'brainwashed Marxist multiculturalists' given the publicity that rendering of liberalism has been receiving lately. I mean some time soon the term brainwashed liberal progressives will just start seeming trite, don't you think.

pubby


No. You are reaching again.

#22 The Postman

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:29 AM

No. You are reaching again.



Fear and greed, in the stock market, comes from conservatism. Somebody's getting rich, while others are scared to death. :drinks:
"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied. ... Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings." ~ The Chief Author of our Declaration of Independence



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