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Schools may be prohibited from getting early August start

This ought to be a law?  

96 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the legislature keep schools from starting instruction in early August?

    • Yes
      60
    • No
      36


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There is no teacher's union in Georgia. There are professional organizations, but calling them a union is a misnomer, as they have no political power, outside of lobbying for the group of teachers.

 

Teacher's unions oppose Merit pay This is where the Georgia Educators Association stands right now on the Governor's proposal and this is why it probably won't happen.

 

http://jacksonville....erit_pay_option

 

The Georgia Educators Association is waiting for the details before it decides whether to support or oppose his idea, according to president Jeff Hubbard. For instance, he suggests the achievement be measured by the student's classroom participation and work on projects rather than just on standardized tests.

 

"If they are going to base it just on a standardized test score, that is going to be a problem with us because a child is more than a standardized-test score and a teacher is more than a standardized-test score," Hubbard said.

 

Perdue acknowledged that such tests could lead to more allegations of teachers cheating on the tests, something he intends to address with a separate bill that will do more to safeguard the integrity of tests. And he said he'll seek teacher input on how to design the merit-pay legislation to address their concerns.

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Teacher's unions oppose Merit pay This is where the Georgia Educators Association stands right now on the Governor's proposal and this is why it probably won't happen.

 

http://jacksonville....erit_pay_option

 

The Georgia Educators Association is waiting for the details before it decides whether to support or oppose his idea, according to president Jeff Hubbard. For instance, he suggests the achievement be measured by the student's classroom participation and work on projects rather than just on standardized tests.

 

"If they are going to base it just on a standardized test score, that is going to be a problem with us because a child is more than a standardized-test score and a teacher is more than a standardized-test score," Hubbard said.

 

Perdue acknowledged that such tests could lead to more allegations of teachers cheating on the tests, something he intends to address with a separate bill that will do more to safeguard the integrity of tests. And he said he'll seek teacher input on how to design the merit-pay legislation to address their concerns.

GEA is not a union. :yahoo:

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Non-union teachers oppose it too. ninja.gif

 

I took the President of the GEA at his word, that the teachers were waiting for more details, but I think you are right. Teachers don't want it to see the light of day.

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I took the President of the GEA at his word, that the teachers were waiting for more details, but I think you are right. Teachers don't want it to see the light of day.

Because it is a terrible idea that doesn't show anything, can't compare teachers and gives those schools in high economic strata the pay advantage over teachers that might be much better and work much harder but the kids are just so far behind that the scores just don't meaure up. That is not the teachers fault. :ninja:

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Because it is a terrible idea that doesn't show anything, can't compare teachers and gives those schools in high economic strata the pay advantage over teachers that might be much better and work much harder but the kids are just so far behind that the scores just don't meaure up. That is not the teachers fault. ninja.gif

It does not always boil down to money. There are schools in the poorest sections of Atlanta and Washington that have achieved great results. It has to do with hard work and a good curriculum. I agree that if the children do not have the ability to get past a certain level no matter what a teacher does they can't change the end result. There was a very successful scholarship program in Washington for poor children that sent them to the same private school the President's children go to, but Congress got rid of it.

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It isn't just about the child's ability. It's about the child's desire, too.

 

 

True, but if they are not able to get to a certain level it should not be demanded of them. Some special needs children are expected to pass the equivalent of algebra II under the new math requirements. I think that is unfair to some of those kids and to the teachers who are expected to make it happen.

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True, but if they are not able to get to a certain level it should not be demanded of them. Some special needs children are expected to pass the equivalent of algebra II under the new math requirements. I think that is unfair to some of those kids and to the teachers who are expected to make it happen.

The special schools and programs that you alluded to are for low income children with a desire to gain a better education. Without the desire, they don't qualify. That's all I was getting at.

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The special schools and programs that you alluded to are for low income children with a desire to gain a better education. Without the desire, they don't qualify. That's all I was getting at.

You are right. Sorry, I misread your meaning.

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Because it is a terrible idea that doesn't show anything, can't compare teachers and gives those schools in high economic strata the pay advantage over teachers that might be much better and work much harder but the kids are just so far behind that the scores just don't meaure up. That is not the teachers fault. :ninja:

 

Teachers are being made the scapegoat for the societal problems contributing to poor test scores. Teacher merit pay sounds like a wonderful idea on its face but many factors are beyond our control. I cannot control whether or not a child does their homework, or chooses to study when they get home. Before I give a test in my class, I give a review sheet several days in advance, let the kids work on it in class, help with any questions they have, and try to reteach information they may have missed, and go over the review sheet the day prior to the test. In addition, I give the students an extra 5 points for a completed review sheet. However, you'll be amazed to find out that many kids fail to turn in a completed review sheet and fail to work on the review sheet in class, yet they have the audacity to blame the teacher for their lack of success and have parents support the sense of entitlement their kids have. Most teachers try to work hard and do the right thing by their students but we are not miracle workers. We cannot make up for the lack of parental involvement in their child's education, nor can we make up for the lack of discipline at home. I guarantee the proponents of merit pay would soil themselves if they had to set foot in a classroom, especially the inner cities or poor rural schools. I graduated from high school 25 years ago and the difference between now and then is staggering. I had some teachers I didn't care for, but never thought they were out to do me in or cheat me in some way. I felt most teachers were on my side, willing to help and support me. Today, kids feel they have a right to do and say what they please without fear of reprecussion. Worst of all, you have parents feed into this dysfunctional and inappropriate behavior and yet we are blamed for the lack of success their child may have and politicians on both sides of the political spectrum blame teachers as well. I guarantee if every teacher in Georgia was "sick"for a day, the state would grind to a halt.

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Teachers are being made the scapegoat for the societal problems contributing to poor test scores. Teacher merit pay sounds like a wonderful idea on its face but many factors are beyond our control. I cannot control whether or not a child does their homework, or chooses to study when they get home. Before I give a test in my class, I give a review sheet several days in advance, let the kids work on it in class, help with any questions they have, and try to reteach information they may have missed, and go over the review sheet the day prior to the test. In addition, I give the students an extra 5 points for a completed review sheet. However, you'll be amazed to find out that many kids fail to turn in a completed review sheet and fail to work on the review sheet in class, yet they have the audacity to blame the teacher for their lack of success and have parents support the sense of entitlement their kids have. Most teachers try to work hard and do the right thing by their students but we are not miracle workers. We cannot make up for the lack of parental involvement in their child's education, nor can we make up for the lack of discipline at home. I guarantee the proponents of merit pay would soil themselves if they had to set foot in a classroom, especially the inner cities or poor rural schools. I graduated from high school 25 years ago and the difference between now and then is staggering. I had some teachers I didn't care for, but never thought they were out to do me in or cheat me in some way. I felt most teachers were on my side, willing to help and support me. Today, kids feel they have a right to do and say what they please without fear of reprecussion. Worst of all, you have parents feed into this dysfunctional and inappropriate behavior and yet we are blamed for the lack of success their child may have and politicians on both sides of the political spectrum blame teachers as well. I guarantee if every teacher in Georgia was "sick"for a day, the state would grind to a halt.

 

Isn't that the truth!!!

Edited by Pensacola

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Teachers are being made the scapegoat for the societal problems contributing to poor test scores. Teacher merit pay sounds like a wonderful idea on its face but many factors are beyond our control. I cannot control whether or not a child does their homework, or chooses to study when they get home. Before I give a test in my class, I give a review sheet several days in advance, let the kids work on it in class, help with any questions they have, and try to reteach information they may have missed, and go over the review sheet the day prior to the test. In addition, I give the students an extra 5 points for a completed review sheet. However, you'll be amazed to find out that many kids fail to turn in a completed review sheet and fail to work on the review sheet in class, yet they have the audacity to blame the teacher for their lack of success and have parents support the sense of entitlement their kids have. Most teachers try to work hard and do the right thing by their students but we are not miracle workers. We cannot make up for the lack of parental involvement in their child's education, nor can we make up for the lack of discipline at home. I guarantee the proponents of merit pay would soil themselves if they had to set foot in a classroom, especially the inner cities or poor rural schools. I graduated from high school 25 years ago and the difference between now and then is staggering. I had some teachers I didn't care for, but never thought they were out to do me in or cheat me in some way. I felt most teachers were on my side, willing to help and support me. Today, kids feel they have a right to do and say what they please without fear of reprecussion. Worst of all, you have parents feed into this dysfunctional and inappropriate behavior and yet we are blamed for the lack of success their child may have and politicians on both sides of the political spectrum blame teachers as well. I guarantee if every teacher in Georgia was "sick"for a day, the state would grind to a halt.

 

 

I agree with everything you have said. I really don't know how it got to this point. I believe the system is failing not just the kids but some very hard working teachers. I don' t pretend to know how to fix it but it is not working. JMO

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I think we need to mention that there are plenty of wonderful parents out there who are working with teachers to raise these children right. I also believe that many parents' hands are tied because of lack of textbooks to use as references to the lessons taught.

 

There are always going to be glitches in education, and I believe parents could help teachers more with supporting textbooks (yes, I know there's no "perfect" textbook, but there are some that would help.....which is better than none at all).

 

There is so much pressure being put on teachers to make sure that schools look "good", administration looks "good", curriculum works, etc. Teachers are being blamed for many of the problems of bad "upbringings" of our youth.

 

How are we going to fix things? Teachers need to have time to connect with the students. When students feel like someone cares, most will perform. Teachers are spending more time learning how to teach, learning how to read data, learning how to make retest after retest, learning how to arrange for second and third and fourth chances of tests, classwork assignments, and projects that they are (or maybe it's just I am) having a hard time finding that focus of building relationships with the children.

 

After all of my research about contributors to positive student performance, the number one factor is the quality and personality of the teacher. It must be our goal to attract the BEST teachers to Paulding, to support them, to fire the bad, and to make the best ones want to live and stay here.

 

Merit pay and focuses on standardized teaching testing are not going to attract the best. With saying this, I think Paulding is doing all they can to hire and keep the best teachers. It's the state and federal gov't demands that will drive some of the best from its profession.

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I think we need to mention that there are plenty of wonderful parents out there who are working with teachers to raise these children right. I also believe that many parents' hands are tied because of lack of textbooks to use as references to the lessons taught.

 

There are always going to be glitches in education, and I believe parents could help teachers more with supporting textbooks (yes, I know there's no "perfect" textbook, but there are some that would help.....which is better than none at all).

 

There is so much pressure being put on teachers to make sure that schools look "good", administration looks "good", curriculum works, etc. Teachers are being blamed for many of the problems of bad "upbringings" of our youth.

 

How are we going to fix things? Teachers need to have time to connect with the students. When students feel like someone cares, most will perform. Teachers are spending more time learning how to teach, learning how to read data, learning how to make retest after retest, learning how to arrange for second and third and fourth chances of tests, classwork assignments, and projects that they are (or maybe it's just I am) having a hard time finding that focus of building relationships with the children.

 

After all of my research about contributors to positive student performance, the number one factor is the quality and personality of the teacher. It must be our goal to attract the BEST teachers to Paulding, to support them, to fire the bad, and to make the best ones want to live and stay here.

 

Merit pay and focuses on standardized teaching testing are not going to attract the best. With saying this, I think Paulding is doing all they can to hire and keep the best teachers. It's the state and federal gov't demands that will drive some of the best from its profession.

 

I agree. That is why I think that NCLB and the unfunded mandates it requires has done far more harm than good.

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Exactly...thank goodness there's rumor that NCLB is going away!

 

Education Reform: Obama budget reboots NCLB

I read that too. It is my understanding that he does not want to get rid of it, he just wants to shield under performing schools from being hit with the loss of status. I don't really think that is going to solve anything. It is the teaching to the test that bothers me among other things. Somehow we have stopped teaching some of the really important things and are now only teaching the things that will be on the test. There are other problems too but just keeping the schools from losing status because they do not meet AYP is not a solution. I believe some of the behavior issues come from trying to keep them from dropping out. Maybe from trying not to be on the list for violent schools by not dealing with some of the discipline problems and having to document them. I really don't know, these are just some of my guesses about what is happening. I do believe at the bottom of most of it is NCLB.

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I read that too. It is my understanding that he does not want to get rid of it, he just wants to shield under performing schools from being hit with the loss of status. I don't really think that is going to solve anything. It is the teaching to the test that bothers me among other things. Somehow we have stopped teaching some of the really important things and are now only teaching the things that will be on the test. There are other problems too but just keeping the schools from losing status because they do not meet AYP is not a solution. I believe some of the behavior issues come from trying to keep them from dropping out. Maybe from trying not to be on the list for violent schools by not dealing with some of the discipline problems and having to document them. I really don't know, these are just some of my guesses about what is happening. I do believe at the bottom of most of it is NCLB.

 

I spent yesterday afternoon at a faculty meeting for documenting interventions used for failing students. This has nothing to do with helping kids and everything to do with CYA. The amount of documentation required for teachers now is mind numbing and less and less time is spent planning decent lessons.

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It does not always boil down to money. There are schools in the poorest sections of Atlanta and Washington that have achieved great results. It has to do with hard work and a good curriculum. I agree that if the children do not have the ability to get past a certain level no matter what a teacher does they can't change the end result. There was a very successful scholarship program in Washington for poor children that sent them to the same private school the President's children go to, but Congress got rid of it.

 

 

Have you read the news lately? Two thirds of the Atlanta schools are accused of cheating on the CRCT right now. I believe that's what was said earlier, about people wanting to cheat. If you base everything a child a child learns on one day and on one test, that's wrong. There are too many variables at play. And to also base the teacher's pay on this same test is not right. There must be a better way.

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This may be an unpopular opinion but ... I firmly believe there would be no need for NCLB is our schools were allowed to group kids based on their skills and their abilities without fear of hurting anyone's feelings. It is detrimental to the better students as well as those that struggle when we try to pretend that they are all alike. The students who learn faster are held up by those that do not. The students who don't catch on as quickly often get lost in their lessons. It's almost like we run our schools like unions now ... doesn't matter how good you are or are not at your job, everyone gets treated the same.

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I'm sorry if I offended you. There are exceptions to every rule. You obviously got more out of your summers, but it could be because there was no cable, internet, game systems or other distractions from using one's imagination, creating games, and entertaining oneself with nature and life experiences. Our children just grow too fast.

 

After spending 6 months of research on school calendars for my Ed. S. I think I know what the data shows. These are OUR children, you're right. I could care less about how summers are. Actually, I love spending them with my 2 children at home. But being a teacher, I know what's best for all of our children over all. For them to learn, they need schools with year-round education.

 

As for education being better for you than children today, I disagree again. We are teaching students much more than ever was taught in GA schools. It may be different topics than what you learned, and that's another topic entirely about what to teach, but students are getting incredible amounts of information in our schools today.

 

As for heating and cooling costs, I don't agree that it's as big of an issue or cost as you. I just want our children educated....period.

 

 

Not all education takes place inside a classroom. ;)

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This may be an unpopular opinion but ... I firmly believe there would be no need for NCLB is our schools were allowed to group kids based on their skills and their abilities without fear of hurting anyone's feelings. It is detrimental to the better students as well as those that struggle when we try to pretend that they are all alike. The students who learn faster are held up by those that do not. The students who don't catch on as quickly often get lost in their lessons. It's almost like we run our schools like unions now ... doesn't matter how good you are or are not at your job, everyone gets treated the same.

 

 

Yep! I have worked in the system and it worked far better (for all) when we did not try to make a one size fits all classroom. JMO

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Yep! I have worked in the system and it worked far better (for all) when we did not try to make a one size fits all classroom. JMO

 

 

AMEN!! I wouldn't say that those that dont learn the same way are not good students or slow

just that they learn differently. Its sad that the teachers are not allowed to teach them differently.

Its bad for all students and I am sick of it. I think it is pretty obvious thatit doesn't work, look at our test scores

here. Its really pathetic. Alot of people blame the teachers, but its really not thier fault. (not all of them, I have met some that are useless

but the majority really do care)

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I have to agree. My personal preference would be for a different approach to the school calendar. I'm not a big fan of these early August starts and all the weeks off.

 

That said, I am reticent to suggest that such a preference should be written into law. I think it is a risky move to put a law in place that makes it impossible to accommodate circumstances that might make an early-start calendar the very best solution... except that it would be illegal. What circumstances are those? I don't know, but stuff happens. And the same stuff doesn't happen in Savannah that happens in Dallas that happens in Valdosta that happens in Commerce.

 

I am open to hearing the arguments... but my initial take is... go to your school board meetings and argue your case there instead of in Atlanta.

 

That would be great except for the fact that we were given three choices which all sucked as far as timing. It is insane to allow children to exert themselves in a gym that has no a/c in August. It is also fiscally irresponsible to pay the a/c bill when the alternative is available and has always worked for us in the past.

 

I am not a fan of legislation making the call for local government/school systems but I think it's about time someone put a stop to this nonsense. Bring on the law if that's what it's gonna take!

 

If they did away with all of the extra week long breaks they could end around Memorial Day and start around Labor day.

 

Keep Christmas (winter break) and Easter (Sprig break) and get rid of the rest!

 

Here, here! I think the continuous weekly breaks are disruptive.

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I don't know if there are all that many parents that love it, I know the teachers do. The three choices were all horrible, it you call that a choice. We were presented with the bad calendars and had to choose the (cough, cough) "best". I hardly call that listening to the parents. ;)

 

Agreed!

 

The Represenative points out something that has never made sense to me: When school starts why do they shut down attractions like Six Flags and the Laser Show at Stone Mountain? They don't shut down Disneyworld when school starts.

 

Because the majority of their employees are high schoolers and the majority of their business goes away when school starts.

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That's about where I'm at.

 

 

 

I agree. But...Paulding county is full of the good ol' boys with the long lists of family names that have ran this county. No matter what, I feel that it's not going to change. :(

 

It does seem that way. Maybe we need to get some p.commers up in there!

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I am going to post this again, the state of North Carolina, by law..starts on Aug 25th and must finish by June 10th. The interesting thing is I asked one of the new board members and she said no change. Also, I understand that three board members in Cobb promised no changes....so when I go back to vote....she is out of my vote. We do not need all of these breaks period..

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I am going to post this again, the state of North Carolina, by law..starts on Aug 25th and must finish by June 10th. The interesting thing is I asked one of the new board members and she said no change. Also, I understand that three board members in Cobb promised no changes....so when I go back to vote....she is out of my vote. We do not need all of these breaks period..

I think only one voted against the calender which was approved. She is one of the newest members.

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Teachers teach and parents should help their children learn of course no one can make anyone learn if they don't want to. makes no difference when they start or stop. But I wish it was the way it use to be when both parents didn't have to work and didn't have to pay out the nose (specially single parents) for day care and summer vacation was still summer vacation and every body got to spend quality time with their family, now there never seems to be that much time anymore. Oh No!!! wake me up I am dreaming. Don't see that ever happening again. Maybe thing will work out and all will be right with the world again. Would be nice if the Majority was listened to for a change.

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I'm for this legislation. The local school boards obviously don't listen to the teachers or parents.

 

That entire comment is absurd and rediculous. The Paulding BOE put the calenders to vote. They had 3 options for everyone to look at and choose from. People voted and the board went with the calender that was picked by the voting. So before you go blasting your school board by saying they don't listen please make sure that you know all the facts.

 

To the idiot lawmaker in Marietta he has no right to dictate when school starts and when it doesn't. That is the local school boards decision! Maybe he should be trying to think of ways to turn around the economy and help create jobs instead of interfering with the local school boards.

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That would be great except for the fact that we were given three choices which all sucked as far as timing. It is insane to allow children to exert themselves in a gym that has no a/c in August. It is also fiscally irresponsible to pay the a/c bill when the alternative is available and has always worked for us in the past.

 

I am not a fan of legislation making the call for local government/school systems but I think it's about time someone put a stop to this nonsense. Bring on the law if that's what it's gonna take!

 

 

 

Here, here! I think the continuous weekly breaks are disruptive.

 

First off most high schools have year round things going on in their schools from football practice to band practice to basketball baseball and so on. High School sports has become a year round (even during the summer) event. Your going to complain about a gym having no a/c in august. Its usually just as hot in september. and oh yeah the football players are out in the heat in full pads in august. Don't hear you complaining about that. If all the choices sucked did you go to the board meeting and make your voice heard? Or do you just want to sit on here and complain and not do anything about it?

 

All the teachers I have talked to are excited about the breaks. The kids come back from these breaks refreshed and work harder.

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That entire comment is absurd and rediculous. The Paulding BOE put the calenders to vote. They had 3 options for everyone to look at and choose from. People voted and the board went with the calender that was picked by the voting. So before you go blasting your school board by saying they don't listen please make sure that you know all the facts.

 

To the idiot lawmaker in Marietta he has no right to dictate when school starts and when it doesn't. That is the local school boards decision! Maybe he should be trying to think of ways to turn around the economy and help create jobs instead of interfering with the local school boards.

 

With all due respect...

 

The three choices given weren't even close to what parents want. I messed up by not voting at all since they all were unacceptable to our family. We parents should've been taking the time to write in to let them know that there was no choice that was feasible to most parents. Unfortunately, we cannot constantly devote time to the choices of the BOE.

 

The lawmaker in Marietta is taking costs into consideration when he is recommending keeping our school year out of the hottest month of the year. And no, June has never been as hot as August.

 

It is a stretch to say that the BOE never listens to parents. That I agree with. It's just a shame that we have to stay so focused on our BOE and their decisions instead of more productive things like spending time with our families.

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There was a link that you could send in your comments to the board on the calenders when you voted. You could also have gone to your Board member in your district and let them be aware of your issues/concerns about the calender. You can't complain when you don't vote or make your voice heard.

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There was a link that you could send in your comments to the board on the calenders when you voted. You could also have gone to your Board member in your district and let them be aware of your issues/concerns about the calender. You can't complain when you don't vote or make your voice heard.

 

Very true. I just had to take a break on this one.

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Sorry if I have come across like an a$$. It just gets on my nerves when people do nothing but complain about something but do nothing to try and fix the problem or are proactive enough to make it known how they feel except on a message board after the fact. Sadly we vote for these people and rely on them to make the choices for us. Some times we have to let our board of education members know how we feel much like we do with our government politicians.

 

I have always been of the belief that if you don't take the time to vote or express your opinion to the people that make the choices then you can't complain when something happens you don't agree with. If anyone out there think they can do it better by all means sign up and run for office.

 

You can't please all of the people all of the time but you can please some of the people some of the time.

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You nailed it. Can't please everyone. This fighting the start date thing has just pushed our buttons for long enough that I'm actually willing to take some upper government butting in. We have made our opinion known, just didn't jump in on THIS round. You are totally right about that. I agree with you that we should talk where it matters.

 

However, this battle seems to go on forever. Our family would love to see it put to a stop once and for all. There is not one person I've talked to who would prefer an earlier start date. There are some on here obviously.

 

And is it really wise to send such a blow to the businesses in our area? I believe that this will eventually kill Six Flags as well as other tourist businesses. Even though that's not the responsibility of the board, would it kill us to think of the economy? I think Six Flags has already filed for bankruptcy....please correct me on this if I am wrong. It's just one more reason to put things back the way they were.

 

And I don't believe for a second that it harms the kids as far as learning goes. Six one, 1/2 dozen....every break they take will pull them back so whether it's several during the year or one large break during the summer. We're gonna have a break in the summer anyway. Might as well not have the lagging after all the mini breaks in between.

 

I do beleive that our BOE listens but it takes a LOT of talking to get their attention, which makes sense. Just ready to put this one to bed~

 

For the record, we love taking vacations that are scattered, to places that are less crowded. Just don't think it's the right choice overall.

 

What the heck am I doing writing a book: it's beautiful outside! I'm outta here...everyone enjoy the sun while we can!

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of all the teachers I have talked to about the breaks is this. Most people think that kids are crazy the week before a break and it takes a while to get them back on track after a break. There are only 2 breaks in the year that the kids get a little wild. Christmas break and last week of school. The kids seem refreshed and work harder after the breaks. This year will just seem like a short summer cause it will be. Next summer won't be as bad. It averages out to a break about every 5-7 weeks (not including the 3 weeks between thanksgiving and xmas). As someone who works in the school system It don't bother me one way or the other when the kids start or don't start. I just think the government is trying to put their hands into to many things they shouldn't (but thats another story for another topic)

 

As far as local business like 6 flags eh don't bother me. I'm not a big fan of 6 flags and its honestly not in the safest of areas anyways.

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I'm for this legislation. The local school boards obviously don't listen to the teachers or parents.

 

 

The teachers and other school employees vote on the calendar,so the early start time received the most votes!

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The teachers and other school employees vote on the calendar,so the early start time received the most votes!

 

JSYK... it doesn't exactly work like that. Say Sept 1, receives the most votes, yet the BOE decides (for whatever reason, financial..etc) that Sept 1 is not in the best interest of Paulding county, they look at what was voted on, and then they vote for what they think best.

 

I would venture to guess, if we did a poll that was private, most teachers would not be showing happy with an August 1 start date. We do not get out until June 5, then post planning then back in July for pre-planning.

 

I will say it is a done deal and no matter what we or anyone thinks it is happening like this. I will deal with it. Do I love it? No, but sometimes you just deal with what you are dealt.

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