Following is a narrative - a 100 percent fictional narrative I might add
The purpose is to determine what you consider guilty actions that ought to be punishable by law.
The questions relate to three 'characters' in this story. They are Bubba, Chris and Miguel. There are some more characters in the story who are absolutely guilty. We'll just call them the Reprobate Brothers. The time is December 2001 and the location is Raulding county Borgia in another universe. Despite the differences this place is a lot like the place around here.
The reprobate brothers are sitting in a booth at a local chain restaurant. On the table is a phone, some paper and a plate - the brothers were short of cash - that had once held a short stack of pancakes with copious amounts of syrup. Now the plate had several cigarette butts put out on the plate.
Off to the side was a small baggy that appeared to contain three doobies and some assorted white pills. Obviously a personal stash that shouldn't have been on the table.
Miguel was the waiter and while pouring waters for two of the reprobate brothers, couldn't help but notice the stash. His eyebrows raised with recognition and his eyes met the fat, bearded brother who quickly palmed the stash. Miguel's gaze fell to the glass and he stopped the pour before the mixture of water and ice crested the lip.
He looked at what appeared the oldest brother and asked if they were ready for their check. A sniveling nod yes followed. Miguel could tell the Reprobate brothers were bigots and resented being served by a person whose Mayan heritage predates Columbus.
Still Miguel was illegal here and these brothers, well, they were illegal too, he thought. As he turned from the table, he knew there would not be a dime left on the side of the table but he wondered - maybe hoped - that one of the doobies would be left innocently under the plate with the butts.
The Reprobate brothers left nothing but the correct change at the register as they checked. Miguel was already busing the table when the cashed out - assholes. He thought maybe he should call the law on them ... but no, he said to himself ... the boss won't even call on walkouts less than $10.00 and these yoyo's ticket wasn't but $8.88.
Leaving the Reprobate brothers were bored. One said he knew of a house in Old Hope where there was a lot of money and some drugs. All the brothers knew the house. It was s drug dealer who lived there with his live-in girlfriend and a couple of kids - babies.
They were coming back into Fort Worth near the turn to go to Old Hope when the oldest brother, who was driving, whipped left into the parking lot for a outdoors shop. We're going to need some things, come on in.
As the three walked down the aisles they turned left to the table where ammo and guns were for sale.
Chris, an imposing figure, stood behind the counter. He knew the Reprobate brothers and wasn't going to take much off them. He and the oldest were in the same class at the local high schools - of course the oldest Reprobate dropped out in tenth grade but back in the day, he and Chris had mixed it up more than once. Chris had won ... every time.
Donny, said, I need a box of 9mm ... he laid down a $20 and a $5 on the counter and Chris turned to pick the box off the shelf. Behind him, he heard Kenny, the youngest of the reprobate brothers, ask him what would happen if anyone was there.
Bang, bang, Donny said as he turned and stuck his finger in Kenny's face, releasing his thumb like a hammer. Shut the truck up. He turned back to Chris and saw him right up the purchase and pull out the change and drop the coins in the bag with the box containing 50 rounds.
"You aren't going to do nothing stupid are you Don?" Chris asked.
Donny grinned sheepishly and stuck his hand out toward Cris, formed a gun and said, Bang bang, shook his head and laughed.
The brothers turned to leave when Ray, the middle brother, saw Bubba, his best friend before he quit school earlier in the year. Bubba looked up and smiled the smile that the two friends knew meant they were going to get high.
Chris had turned to phone and picked it up. He knew the Reprobates were up to no good and he didn't want to contribute to their mischief. He started to dial when he saw his cousin Bubba, follow the brothers outside. He knew Bubba was a pot head but he was proud that he was still in school in the 11th grade. Too many of the contemporaries he knew had already dropped out and at least Bubba, Aunt Carrie said, was passing everything - even history - and had a talent for music. Chris put the phone down and decided not to call the law.
Bubba followed the brothers into the back seat with Ray who pulled out a doobie. Bubba grinned, pulled a lighter from his jacket and lit it.
What's up? he said. Ray couldn't speak yet - he was holding it in - but with a cough, he said, we're going to get us some big money and drugs; wanna come?
Spinning his eyes in their sockets while he sucked on the stick - Bubba was funny in that way - he passed the doobie to Kenny and put his finger on his lips to signal silence.
When? he sputtered, smoke coming out his mouth then his nose.
"As soon as we finish this doobie," said Donny.
"Who you gonna hit," Bubba said.
The folks dealing the meth up in Old Hope; you know the people in the old Hawkins place.
"I can't; Junior promised my car would be ready in a half hour - getting new tires - and I got to take sis to Mayretta but if you get some good sheeze, I'll hook up with you later tonight."
"Aint no damn freebees," Donnie said, "but you can have another hit if you give me $10 for some gas?"
This sheeze box Dodge eats gas don't it, Bubba said. Give me ride up to the tire barn.
Alright, Donny said, cranking the car. The foursome stopped at the Tire Barn, Bubba gave Donny a $10 bill for gas and got out.
Don't forget me if you get some good sheeze, Bubba said to Ray. Ray shot him back an okay - bang.
The Reprobates stopped at a gas station in Old Hope, put $5.00 in and spent the other $5 on two packs of Maverick red cigarettes. The brothers piled into the car, when the mile north, took a right on a long dusty drive and stopped in front of the isolated farm house.
They could see the 20 something girl through the window changing the diaper on her youngest ... a two year old girl. The four year old boy was asleep in the back bedroom.
The brothers knocked on the door. Chrystal opened the door. Donny stuck a gun in her ribs and said, get me the money and get me the drugs. Kenny strolled over to the changing table where the two year old girl was, pulled his knife and started teasing the child with the blade.
Within a half-hour, both Chrystal and her daughter had been raped and murdered. The Reprobate brothers took off for Wexico.
------------------------------------
So are any of our trio guilty in this story?
There was Miguel, the waiter, who knew the Reprobate brothers had committed the crime of possession of controlled substances but declined to call the authorities or even inform them.
There was Chris, who overheard a key element of a plot to commit some crime and the threat to kill the victims for being there. He contributed 50 rounds of ammo having sold it to them knowing they were not exactly the nicest people. Indeed, he was about to act on his suspicions but chose instead to protect his cousin whom, if he called the law then, would no doubt get caught up in some crime.
Finally there was Bubba. He knew the nature of the crime. He contributed money for gas for the venture. He bargained for some of the ill-gotten gains from the crime and he never even thought about calling the law even though he knew a felony was 'happening' and where it was happening.
The stories of Miguel, Chris and Bubba are all fiction and setting that aside, the rest of the details are based on the story of the Tate Brothers who committed a gruesome double rape and murder in early December 2001 in New Hope.
Having read the story, your task is now to render a verdict of guilt or innocence in the poll above.
Know that if any of the three fictional characters had acted on their knowledge and informed authorities, it is likely that the tragedy would have been averted and no crime would have been committed ... at least that afternoon.
Guilty of a crime - Two likely criminal offenses: Accessory before the fact of murder; conspiracy to commit a crime.
A relatively common accessory before the fact comes from dram shop liability. A barkeeper lets a guy get not just drunk but bad drunk and lets him leave the bar and drive. In several states, dram shop liability would hold the barkeeper not only just financially responsible to the family killed by the drunk driver but in some states, the liability is also criminal. There is a pretty high bar to be reached by the prosecutor but it does and has happened.
Ditto...guilty of what? Miguel could have phoned in an anonymous tip on the drugs, but that wouldn't necessarily have amounted to anything. Chris could have called the SO's non-emergency line, and morally probably should have, but they could have been talking about video games for all he knew. He had no real reason not to sell them what they purchased. Bubba was guilty of partaking of an illegal substance, but beyond that? He also didn't know for sure what would happen. So, guilty of what?
Bubba perhaps accessory before the fact, but conspiracy? A stretch. The other two? No.
Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken; William Shakespeare, Sonnet 116
Ditto...guilty of what? Miguel could have phoned in an anonymous tip on the drugs, but that wouldn't necessarily have amounted to anything. Chris could have called the SO's non-emergency line, and morally probably should have, but they could have been talking about video games for all he knew. He had no real reason not to sell them what they purchased. Bubba was guilty of partaking of an illegal substance, but beyond that? He also didn't know for sure what would happen. So, guilty of what?
Bubba perhaps accessory before the fact, but conspiracy? A stretch. The other two? No.
I understand your feeling/position. The whole purpose of the topic and poll is not to prove a point but to let folks make up their own minds.
I would ask, though, in the case of Miguel, would it have made a difference if there were a state trooper having a coffee break in a booth 15 feet away?
And the point I want to emphasize about Chris is that he knew Donny ... well. He knew well enough that they were up to something criminal that, if nothing else, they needed to have their cage rattled. Admitted, he didn't have proof of a conspiracy but ... he knew like you might know that a crime is about to happen if you see an old lady walking with a purse and three or four young toughs circling as if for the kill. You know they are predating on that old ladies purse and may push her down and break the poor woman's hip.
I too don't think Chris is criminally guilty but should he feel guilt himself - i.e. the guilt with no punishment? Does his inaction imply guilt?
To find them guilty is to know what they were going to do was going to be a fact, which no one can see the future. I could not find any of them guilty. For all each of them knew it all could have been a act of BS, just a lot of talk. To find them guilty is hind sight justice. I could not find them guilty of anything.
.When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car" It is time to vote every Paulding elected official out of office and get rid of the good ole boy system.
Do your part and vote them out ! !
Better to have a new clown in the office, then to let the current ones continue to rule.
Did anyone else have a hard time reading the narrative?
I had to quit reading after a few paragraphs.
Who is John Gault? - He's the successful business owner who didn't want to play by the new 'Law of the Land' so he closed up shop, packed up his stuff and left. He was joined by many other successful business owners who did the same. They stayed away until the government begged them to return and repealed the law.
You should give a character map of everyone in the story
Miguel - illegal immigrant waiter
Donny - one of the three reprobates
Kenny - one of the three reprobates
Ray - one of the three reprobates
Chris - clerk at sporting goods store
Bubba - 11th grade kid, friend of the reprobates
Chrystal - drug dealer's girlfriend
The waiter Miguel should be deported. His simply being here was a crime. Chris and Bubba did NOTHING out of the ordinary and should not be prosecuted.
You could argue that anyone who buys ammo "could" be up to no good and good grief, who among us hasn't smoked a doobie?
"I think we agree, the past is over."
George W. Bush
Miguel - Illegal and should be locked up then deported. He should have called the police, but when you want some of the illegal drugs they were carrying, why would you do that! Not a crime.
Chris - I believe that the older of the three was of legal age to buy the ammo, and at that time did not have any felony convictions. That would make it legal for them to purchase the ammo, and while he had an idea that something might be going on, he didn't know it for a fact. I don't think he would have recieved any help from police if he had called. I don't think any crime was committed.
Bubba - Guilty of conspiracy to commit a crime. He knew that they were going to rob the dealer of drugs and/or money. He in fact gave them cash to purchase gas to get there for a promise of a cut. Accessory to the murder, maybe... I'm not sure how the law reads, but since the murders were committed during the commission of a crime he did know about, I would think he should be charged with that as well.
Miguel - 'I'd like to report these three guys who stiffed me out of a tip. I think they had a bag of drugs, and they're probably up to no good.'
Chris - 'I'd like to report the Reprobate brothers - they just left here after buying ammo. Donnie made a gun with his finger and said "Bang Bang" I just know they're up to no good.'
Bubba - 'I just left the Reprobate brothers. They said they were bragging about going to rob the folks making meth at the old Hawkins house. I had to give them $10.00 for gas money so I could get out of there.'
I don't think any of these would initiate an immediate BOLO for the brothers in question. Even if the cops took them seriously, the crime would have been committed before any action could be taken.
Should we run to the cops and file a report every time we overhear someone talking big?
Who is John Gault? - He's the successful business owner who didn't want to play by the new 'Law of the Land' so he closed up shop, packed up his stuff and left. He was joined by many other successful business owners who did the same. They stayed away until the government begged them to return and repealed the law.
Miguel had no obligation to turn them in to the police and their possession was unrelated to the crime that followed (other than the mere fact that addicts will do what they can to get more).
Chris, to my knowledge, had no obligation to refuse to sell the ammo, or to call the police, so no charges against him.
Bubba is guilty of conspiracy in regards to the felony murder. He knew they had weapons, knew they were going to use them in the commission of a robbery/theft, aided them in doing so, and anticipated reward from the venture. He's all in and should be found guilty of felony murder.
The Law Office of 1033 Merchants Drive, Ste B Dallas, GA 30132 678-535-3232jeanne@jolawoffice.comCriminal Defense: DUI/Traffic Defense - Misdemeanors - Felonies
Civil Practice: Family Law - Business Law - Personal Injury - Wills/ProbatePlease visit my website.
Miguel had no obligation to turn them in to the police and their possession was unrelated to the crime that followed (other than the mere fact that addicts will do what they can to get more).
Chris, to my knowledge, had no obligation to refuse to sell the ammo, or to call the police, so no charges against him.
Bubba is guilty of conspiracy in regards to the felony murder. He knew they had weapons, knew they were going to use them in the commission of a robbery/theft, aided them in doing so, and anticipated reward from the venture. He's all in and should be found guilty of felony murder.
you cheated...
"The most dangerous place in the world to be is "Between a Mother and her Child"
In Loving Memory of My Daddy and Mama
3-29-08and 10-24-2012
The Law Office of 1033 Merchants Drive, Ste B Dallas, GA 30132 678-535-3232jeanne@jolawoffice.comCriminal Defense: DUI/Traffic Defense - Misdemeanors - Felonies
Civil Practice: Family Law - Business Law - Personal Injury - Wills/ProbatePlease visit my website.
Miguel - 'I'd like to report these three guys who stiffed me out of a tip. I think they had a bag of drugs, and they're probably up to no good.'
Chris - 'I'd like to report the Reprobate brothers - they just left here after buying ammo. Donnie made a gun with his finger and said "Bang Bang" I just know they're up to no good.'
Bubba - 'I just left the Reprobate brothers. They said they were bragging about going to rob the folks making meth at the old Hawkins house. I had to give them $10.00 for gas money so I could get out of there.'
I don't think any of these would initiate an immediate BOLO for the brothers in question. Even if the cops took them seriously, the crime would have been committed before any action could be taken.
Should we run to the cops and file a report every time we overhear someone talking big?
I like the analysis but disagree on a couple of points. (I'm pretty much in agreement with Don Brown's analysis and Jeanne O'Halleran is absolutely right in terms of the law.)
Where I disagree is not on the culpability of Chris (the shop owner - he is innocent of any crime) but the reaction you suggest that LE would have to his 'tip' and also Bubba's tip.
Bubba's tip first.
I think any cop who has the ability to listen would react to the notice that "they were going to rob them folks making meth at the old Hawkins house, I had to give them $10 for gas money so I could get out of there." To me, that is actionable intelligence.
First, "Oh, they're cooking Meth at the old Hawkins house" gives you a clear declarative statement accusing the residents there of cooking meth on par with that of a CI saying hookers are being pimped at some specific house. This isn't the rant of an irate neighbor or the paranoid imagination of an elderly recluse, it is an assertion by a person who probably bought some meth there. It doesn't take much more than that to get a search warrant...
Second, that he gave them $10 for gas to get there to commit the robbery basically establishes the threat is imminent ... as in happening right now. So if a patrol drives by and sees even a hint there may be some other illegal activity - like the brothers standing on the porch with weapons drawn - the LEO would have the authority to enter the premises without a warrant.
In my world, LEO would listen and see the conversation as an opportunity to do their job effectively. Watch any of the cop shows and this is essentially one of the main plot lines. Patrolman hears of suspicious activity, interviews caller/complainant, looks around and does his job.
Another example that is consistent with your reading of how things work but just doesn't ring true:
Caller to 911: There are five punks surrounding an old lady grabbing at her purse and not letting her proceed. Dispatch? Do they have the purse yet? Caller to 911: No, not yet. Dispatch: Call me back if they get the purse. Caller to 911: Wait, the old lady is on the ground. Dispatch: Did you see someone push her? Caller to 911: No, I was talking to you. Dispatch: So do they have the purse yet? Caller to 911: No, she's got it tucked now, I think. They're all around her. Dispatch: She could have fallen and they may be trying to help her up, call me if they take the purse away but I've got real emergencies to take care of. ...fade ... So you have a cat in a tree, huh?
The point Mark is that the folks in LE are heroes because they do listen and do act when it makes sense to do so.
And, as far as the reaction you expect LE to have from the gun shop owner Chris ... I think they'd tend to take his suggestion that they need to look out for what these 'known' ne're do wells are up to. As a gun shop owner, you can assume that the local LEO know Chris. They also know that Chris is in a unique position to provide them pretty good information.
Still, as Jeanne stated, Chris is under no legal obligation to make the call. My point is that LE would not summarily blow it off as you suggested.
Indeed, if LE had the cavalier attitude you suggest, it wouldn't take but one news story to have have them paying more attention.
That news story might have the headline:
Quote
Police ignore tip from gun shop owner that woman accused of cheerleader murders was on a mission of mayhem.
Channel seven news learned today that the woman who killed four at a local school had sought to buy an assault weapon from local shop owner Byron Johnson who, sensing something was wrong, refused to complete the sale and called authorities. The woman, who was never confronted by authorities went to a gun show that very afternoon and purchased the assault rifle and ammunition she used to kill four and wound 15 at her daughter's former cheer leading class.
I called police and told them something wasn't right with this lady and that they needed to check her out, said Johnson. They just blew me off saying 'call me back when there is blood on the floor,' he said.
"I pride myself on knowing my customers and I protect their privacy but this woman was nuts and anyone could see it. Why anyone sold her a gun is beyond me but she needed some help, Johnson said.
Mark, you don't read those headlines very often because your view really doesn't reflect the world we live in. Oh there are isolated instances of such but the exceptions are not the rule.
Despite the attempt to divide and isolate, we instinctively know we're all in this together and that includes LE.
Cops do knock on doors, do look around, do ask questions and do show up when they get calls about weird and aberrant behavior. I can also guarantee you they have learned to listen to those who deal in firearms especially well ... and we're all better off because of that.
pubby
PS: I have no doubt that gun dealers are trustworthy vendors to their customers with high ethics regarding the privacy of those customers - but they also comply with laws that require the purchasers put the names on the ledger. This happens because the NRA and the gun industry itself cringes every time a wacko gets a gun and goes on a rampage. They know they can hold back stricter regulation if it this kind of craziness happens less than one time a year or so. But if we have three columbine -style shooting a month for even two months running, you can bet even a lobby the strength of the NRA would not be able to stop the imposition of new, stricter regulations on firearms.
I would ask, though, in the case of Miguel, would it have made a difference if there were a state trooper having a coffee break in a booth 15 feet away?
I can't think it would. I would assume that any LEO would be bright enough to know a likely drug user when he sees one, and I would assume he would know what to do if he thought they had illegal stuff on them.
Quote
And the point I want to emphasize about Chris is that he knew Donny ... well. He knew well enough that they were up to something criminal that, if nothing else, they needed to have their cage rattled. Admitted, he didn't have proof of a conspiracy but ... he knew like you might know that a crime is about to happen if you see an old lady walking with a purse and three or four young toughs circling as if for the kill. You know they are predating on that old ladies purse and may push her down and break the poor woman's hip.
I too don't think Chris is criminally guilty but should he feel guilt himself - i.e. the guilt with no punishment? Does his inaction imply guilt?
I don't think his inaction implies anything. If he knew Donny really, really well, and was convinced they were up to no good, he may have had a moral obligation to notify someone at the SO. Perhaps not calling 911, but calling the non-emergency line and asking to speak to a detective and explaining his gut feeling. Again, simply a moral obligation, if that.
Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken; William Shakespeare, Sonnet 116
Miguel had no obligation to turn them in to the police and their possession was unrelated to the crime that followed (other than the mere fact that addicts will do what they can to get more).
Chris, to my knowledge, had no obligation to refuse to sell the ammo, or to call the police, so no charges against him.
Bubba is guilty of conspiracy in regards to the felony murder. He knew they had weapons, knew they were going to use them in the commission of a robbery/theft, aided them in doing so, and anticipated reward from the venture. He's all in and should be found guilty of felony murder.
Hey, what's going on here? A professional explaining something? We can't have that! It'll ruin our reputation!
(Thanks for that...I figured Bubba was guilty of something, but you made it very clear.)
Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken; William Shakespeare, Sonnet 116
I like the analysis but disagree on a couple of points. (I'm pretty much in agreement with Don Brown's analysis and Jeanne O'Halleran is absolutely right in terms of the law.)
Where I disagree is not on the culpability of Chris (the shop owner - he is innocent of any crime) but the reaction you suggest that LE would have to his 'tip' and also Bubba's tip.
Bubba's tip first.
I think any cop who has the ability to listen would react to the notice that "they were going to rob them folks making meth at the old Hawkins house, I had to give them $10 for gas money so I could get out of there." To me, that is actionable intelligence.
First, "Oh, they're cooking Meth at the old Hawkins house" gives you a clear declarative statement accusing the residents there of cooking meth on par with that of a CI saying hookers are being pimped at some specific house. This isn't the rant of an irate neighbor or the paranoid imagination of an elderly recluse, it is an assertion by a person who probably bought some meth there. It doesn't take much more than that to get a search warrant...
Second, that he gave them $10 for gas to get there to commit the robbery basically establishes the threat is imminent ... as in happening right now. So if a patrol drives by and sees even a hint there may be some other illegal activity - like the brothers standing on the porch with weapons drawn - the LEO would have the authority to enter the premises without a warrant.
In my world, LEO would listen and see the conversation as an opportunity to do their job effectively. Watch any of the cop shows and this is essentially one of the main plot lines. Patrolman hears of suspicious activity, interviews caller/complainant, looks around and does his job.
Another example that is consistent with your reading of how things work but just doesn't ring true:
Caller to 911: There are five punks surrounding an old lady grabbing at her purse and not letting her proceed. Dispatch? Do they have the purse yet? Caller to 911: No, not yet. Dispatch: Call me back if they get the purse. Caller to 911: Wait, the old lady is on the ground. Dispatch: Did you see someone push her? Caller to 911: No, I was talking to you. Dispatch: So do they have the purse yet? Caller to 911: No, she's got it tucked now, I think. They're all around her. Dispatch: She could have fallen and they may be trying to help her up, call me if they take the purse away but I've got real emergencies to take care of. ...fade ... So you have a cat in a tree, huh? This is about a crime being committed and not a few punks bragging about what they may or may not do. Not relevant to the story. if a police dispatcher ignores a call about a crime ACTULLY BEING COMMITTED, they should be prosecuted.
The point Mark is that the folks in LE are heroes because they do listen and do act when it makes sense to do so.
And, as far as the reaction you expect LE to have from the gun shop owner Chris ... I think they'd tend to take his suggestion that they need to look out for what these 'known' ne're do wells are up to. As a gun shop owner, you can assume that the local LEO know Chris. They also know that Chris is in a unique position to provide them pretty good information.
Still, as Jeanne stated, Chris is under no legal obligation to make the call. My point is that LE would not summarily blow it off as you suggested.
Indeed, if LE had the cavalier attitude you suggest, it wouldn't take but one news story to have have them paying more attention.
That news story might have the headline:
Mark, you don't read those headlines very often because your view really doesn't reflect the world we live in. Oh there are isolated instances of such but the exceptions are not the rule.
Despite the attempt to divide and isolate, we instinctively know we're all in this together and that includes LE.
Cops do knock on doors, do look around, do ask questions and do show up when they get calls about weird and aberrant behavior. I can also guarantee you they have learned to listen to those who deal in firearms especially well ... and we're all better off because of that.
pubby
What's the timeframe from the time the brothers left the gun shop and the crime was committed? Was it enough time for the police to listen to the story, take a report, determine where the crime may or may not be committed and stake out the place before the brothers got there?
Let's file a police report every time someone makes a boasting remark about how they're going to harm someone else, of if a customer points his finger and says 'bang' in a gun store.
Also, what LEGAL BASIS did the officers have to investigate the 'feelings' of the gun dealer in the case you quoted. What could they have checked out? What evidence of a crime about to be committed?
Who is John Gault? - He's the successful business owner who didn't want to play by the new 'Law of the Land' so he closed up shop, packed up his stuff and left. He was joined by many other successful business owners who did the same. They stayed away until the government begged them to return and repealed the law.
What's the timeframe from the time the brothers left the gun shop and the crime was committed? Was it enough time for the police to listen to the story, take a report, determine where the crime may or may not be committed and stake out the place before the brothers got there?
Let's file a police report every time someone makes a boasting remark about how they're going to harm someone else, of if a customer points his finger and says 'bang' in a gun store.
Mark:
I understand you a lot better now. The world you describe is a bureaucratic hell. You've either worked for large corporations or government and been confronted by the grind that resists all change and movement.
Having worked in news and media in one capacity or another, I see preparation and response to events being the operative reality; not pushing the paper from this pile to that and back again.
Of course in news you also see others in similar reactive and responsive fields like LE, EMTs etc. where each job can be defined and each project has a start, middle and end. Life is a matter of episodes, all different but then on one level all the same.
Bureaucratic hell is that place where reality is one, long, continuous grind in an effort to stop all movement and action. Fear of doing something wrong is replaced with fear of doing anything.
Back to the topic. Yes there might be enough time.
They dropped Bubba off at a tire joint. I didn't name it and that would be important. It probably wouldn't have been Dallas Tire because it is just across the street from the sporting goods place. I'm suspecting a shop back toward Hiram.
Had Bubba made the call you suggest immediately upon leaving the brothers (which if he didn't want to be considered all in he best do quickly) with the SO pretty doggone close to Old Home (up highway 831 the call having been routed to a detective, would probably have had time to beat the brothers there for a quick stake out. I'm sure he'd have asked... are they on the way now? Yes would have been the answer but they've got to get some gasoline first. He'd have calculated if he got up right then - LEO's often drop their donuts when they get a lead - so do reporters - he'd be there a few minutes prior ... or he'd been able to observe their activity at the house.
If the coffee was in a go cup, he could have had some sips on the way.
Hell, checking it out beats sitting in front of a desk.
Or if he had something pressing, he'd have called dispatch and had them sent a patrol around to look at things.
I'm suspecting the Det. (and dept.) knew the brothers were nere do wells and are waiting for an opportunity to nail their butts ... and were elated they got a tip implicating them.
Again, checking it out sure beats hell of sitting in front of a desk.
I understand you a lot better now. The world you describe is a bureaucratic hell. You've either worked for large corporations or government and been confronted by the grind that resists all change and movement.
Having worked in news and media in one capacity or another, I see preparation and response to events being the operative reality; not pushing the paper from this pile to that and back again.
Of course in news you also see others in similar reactive and responsive fields like LE, EMTs etc. where each job can be defined and each project has a start, middle and end. Life is a matter of episodes, all different but then on one level all the same.
Bureaucratic hell is that place where reality is one, long, continuous grind in an effort to stop all movement and action. Fear of doing something wrong is replaced with fear of doing anything.
Back to the topic. Yes there might be enough time.
They dropped Bubba off at a tire joint. I didn't name it and that would be important. It probably wouldn't have been Dallas Tire because it is just across the street from the sporting goods place. I'm suspecting a shop back toward Hiram.
Had Bubba made the call you suggest immediately upon leaving the brothers (which if he didn't want to be considered all in he best do quickly) with the SO pretty doggone close to Old Home (up highway 831 the call having been routed to a detective, would probably have had time to beat the brothers there for a quick stake out. I'm sure he'd have asked... are they on the way now? Yes would have been the answer but they've got to get some gasoline first. He'd have calculated if he got up right then - LEO's often drop their donuts when they get a lead - so do reporters - he'd be there a few minutes prior ... or he'd been able to observe their activity at the house.
If the coffee was in a go cup, he could have had some sips on the way.
Hell, checking it out beats sitting in front of a desk.
Or if he had something pressing, he'd have called dispatch and had them sent a patrol around to look at things.
I'm suspecting the Det. (and dept.) knew the brothers were nere do wells and are waiting for an opportunity to nail their butts ... and were elated they got a tip implicating them.
Again, checking it out sure beats hell of sitting in front of a desk.
pubby
First, comparing LEOs with reporters is an insult to all LEOs. No comparison whatsoever. As a reporter, you need no evidence to begin whatever digging you want.
Next, the world you describe is the one that's a bureaucratic hell. If 'feelings' about others need to be reported and LEOs are obligated to always investigate 'just in case' they have merit, how much bureaucracy will that need?
How would you like to be pulled over because someone had a 'bad feeling' about you and called 911 too to have you investigated 'just in case.' No police report needed to dispatch the nearest LEO.
--
I think if you were to expand this to include local LEA and this is would be your ideal world:
Who is John Gault? - He's the successful business owner who didn't want to play by the new 'Law of the Land' so he closed up shop, packed up his stuff and left. He was joined by many other successful business owners who did the same. They stayed away until the government begged them to return and repealed the law.
The problem with this scenario is that Crystal is culpable in the crime as well if you want to look at it as guilt by association or lack of action. In the line of guilt, or fault she is before any of the others aside from the reprobates.
Why? She was part of the crime that caused what happened to her. She knew they were there to buy drugs, she answered the door knowing why they were there, and was willing to get involved in the crime, and was willing to allow her four year old sun to be there while she committed the crime. And continued to be there knowing full well her boyfriend was a drug dealer, and that type of life is prone to violent crimes where the dealer and those in the same house are victims of violent crimes. And she can be charged with the same crimes her boyfriend would be charged with.
I fantasize about my dogs having jobs. I pretend that both of them are window cleaners and their kennel is their first starter home. I think the bigger dog is trying to bump off the smaller dog so he can have the kennel to himself. I know I have a problem, but don't animals have to earn a living too?
Dogs may not be our whole lives, but they make our lives whole.
A dog is not "almost human" and I know of no greater insult to the canine race than to describe it as such.
The more I see of humans, the more I admire dogs.
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader.
He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
The dog is a gentleman, I hope to go to his heaven, not man's.
If going to law school was cheating, does that mean I don't have to finish paying those student loans????
The Law Office of 1033 Merchants Drive, Ste B Dallas, GA 30132 678-535-3232jeanne@jolawoffice.comCriminal Defense: DUI/Traffic Defense - Misdemeanors - Felonies
Civil Practice: Family Law - Business Law - Personal Injury - Wills/ProbatePlease visit my website.
First, "Oh, they're cooking Meth at the old Hawkins house" gives you a clear declarative statement accusing the residents there of cooking meth on par with that of a CI saying hookers are being pimped at some specific house. This isn't the rant of an irate neighbor or the paranoid imagination of an elderly recluse, it is an assertion by a person who probably bought some meth there. It doesn't take much more than that to get a search warrant...
I appreciate your position, but I think it could still be a bit sketchy as far as a search warrant. A lot would depend on if Bubba ever actually went up there and bought meth, how long ago it was, etc. Otherwise, you would have a cop asking for a search warrant based on an pretty unreliable CI (which Bubba would probably be considered), telling the cop that someone told him something about committing a crime. A few levels of hearsay there. But, the real point is, if he had opened his mouth, police could have checked the location, and seen something was afoot, and maybe stopped it from ending quite so tragically.
Bubba probably should have realized that things were gonna go real bad when they went in with guns blazing, but then again, Bubba doesn't strike me as the most thoughtful sorta fella. That's how he ends up as a conspirator in this fictional scenario - sheer dumb luck! But he's still guilty!
P.S. It's kinda fun playing juror, since I'll probably never ever get to actually sit on one!
The Law Office of 1033 Merchants Drive, Ste B Dallas, GA 30132 678-535-3232jeanne@jolawoffice.comCriminal Defense: DUI/Traffic Defense - Misdemeanors - Felonies
Civil Practice: Family Law - Business Law - Personal Injury - Wills/ProbatePlease visit my website.
Miguel....nothing. He is not legally required to report a crime of that nature and it was not directly related to the ultimate crime anyway.
Chris.....nothing. He is not required to report any suspicious beliefs and even if he did relay everything there was nothing concrete as to a possible location or even a type of criminal activity.
Bubba...guilty of conspiracy to commit felony murder/robbery/theft. He knew of the plan, assisted with finances which was a substantial step in the actual commission of the crime and later expected proceeds from the crime.
Bubba...guilty of conspiracy to commit felony murder/robbery/theft. He knew of the plan, assisted with finances which was a substantial step in the actual commission of the crime and later expected proceeds from the crime.
What if he thought they were talking big with no real intention of following through?
Who is John Gault? - He's the successful business owner who didn't want to play by the new 'Law of the Land' so he closed up shop, packed up his stuff and left. He was joined by many other successful business owners who did the same. They stayed away until the government begged them to return and repealed the law.
Miguel tells the brothers to put out the cigarettes as there is no smoking in the OHop, they refuse and become loud and disorderly, the manager calls the police and brothers are arrested for possession. And promptly murdered in jail. Crisis averted.
I think all three guys were guilty of a crime. It may have been speculation, on their part, but knowing that the story they were hearing, and seeing, was pretty much likely to result in a serious crime, they were guilty of keeping what they did know, about the situation. a secret.
It's like suspicion that Burnie Madoff was cooking the books, and keeping it a secret until millions of dollars are cooked.
"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied. ... Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings." ~ The Chief Author of our Declaration of Independence
It's no different than if Bubba ran me off the road, without touching me. NO PROOF. Now if all three had called the police with the same type story, they might could have gotten the police's attention, maybe. Without verifiable proof of an intent to commit a crime, the police do not have to act on your information.
This also helps prevent the person with a vendetta (or a warped sense of humor) from reporting a fake crime against an innocent person.
This kinda of reminds me of the movie, "Minority Report".
Formally Jetsmom - edited to finally include the final baby's initial. ;)
It's no different than if Bubba ran me off the road, without touching me. NO PROOF. Now if all three had called the police with the same type story, they might could have gotten the police's attention, maybe. Without verifiable proof of an intent to commit a crime, the police do not have to act on your information.
This also helps prevent the person with a vendetta (or a warped sense of humor) from reporting a fake crime against an innocent person.
This kinda of reminds me of the movie, "Minority Report".
What makes these three guys guilty of a crime is not law, but ethic. They didn't try to do anything. The law just put them in the innocent bystander category, but they were not innocent at all.
Police has the power to make a crime seen look different. They can place a throw down weapon at a crime seen. The real law is, "anything that can happen will happen."
This post has been edited by The Postman: 31 March 2012 - 10:30 PM
"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied. ... Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings." ~ The Chief Author of our Declaration of Independence
Murphy's Law sees to it that anything can happen, and it does happen. It's been that way sense the beginning of time. If you suspect something is going to happen it will happen, but you just don't know when.
Never allow your suspicions to go untested. What you suspect will happen is very likely to happen if you have used good old common sense. People who don't use good old common sense don't know the law (Murphy's Law).
It's like some people don't know what the law is about trespass.
O.C.G.A. 51-9-10 says "The unlawful interference with a right of way, or a right of common, constitutes a trespass to the party entitled thereto." Freedom of speech is perhaps the best contemporary example of a common right, because it is still recognized, even among socialists, as an individual right. In public places, each individual has a right to express himself, limited only by the equal rights of others. No person, no majority of people, and no agency of the community has a right to interfere with a person speaking within his rights.
It is when people shout down others, or monopolize a public forum to prevent others from speaking, that they go beyond the limits of their rights, for at this point, their speech denies others the similar right to speak, which right the others equally possess.
The legitimate role of government being to protect these rights, government acts rightfully when it insures that all may speak, but acts wrongfully when it decides, or lets the majority decide, who may speak or what may be said. In doing so, it subverts a common right into a collective right, effectively destroying the rights of those individuals who are excluded.
On P.com we all have a common right. And, even if everyone else stops speaking because an individual has said something they don't like, people on P.com have their rights.
This post has been edited by The Postman: 02 April 2012 - 11:49 AM
"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied. ... Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings." ~ The Chief Author of our Declaration of Independence
Help
This topic is locked
Promote to Article
.
