Ok, the posts in the other thread REALLY amaze me with people saying they would let their kid sit in jail and not bail them out, I guess I am a horrible parent but I just think that is astounding. So here is the scenario. Your kid gets involved and caught vandalizing property. They are a kid that has never gotten into legal trouble before, done really good in school and are generally good all around kids. In this situation the damage is significant and they are facing felony charges, what would you do?
I will tell you up front, #1 would be my choice and others seem to indicate that is a very poor choice. I on the other hand find #2 a very poor choice and refuse to turn my back on my kid. I would never want them to escape punishment, but I feel laying my kid out to the judicial system to punish is very harsh.
This post has been edited by All I Hear is Blah Blah Blah: 12 March 2012 - 08:46 AM
So getting them out of any trouble they face or consequences is the way to teach them that wrong doing is punishable? Next time they think of doing something, they're going to think "Mom and dad will get me out of this." Better now than later on when it's something even more serious, like after sending them to college, costing $$$$ and they get expelled? So instead of facing legal consequences you ground them?
I fantasize about my dogs having jobs. I pretend that both of them are window cleaners and their kennel is their first starter home. I think the bigger dog is trying to bump off the smaller dog so he can have the kennel to himself. I know I have a problem, but don't animals have to earn a living too?
Dogs may not be our whole lives, but they make our lives whole.
A dog is not "almost human" and I know of no greater insult to the canine race than to describe it as such.
The more I see of humans, the more I admire dogs.
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader.
He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
The dog is a gentleman, I hope to go to his heaven, not man's.
So getting them out of any trouble they face or consequences is the way to teach them that wrong doing is punishable? Next time they think of doing something, they're going to think "Mom and dad will get me out of this." Better now than later on when it's something even more serious, like after sending them to college, costing $$ and they get expelled? So instead of facing legal consequences you ground them?
All I hear................
I hear exactly what you are saying and agree with you.
These kids SHOULD be punished, severely BUT their lives should not be ruined.
As a parent, yes I would bail my son out. THEN he would begin by paying me back and work his butt off to clean the school up.
Some people think that leaving them in jail is the answer.
I think PAYBACK is the answer. But let them pay for what they did and do not ruin their lives because they did something dumb.
I agree COMPLETELY, punishment is warranted and I would have asked the admins for them stand out there and clean up their mess during school hours (including drop off and pick up) for everyone to see in the jump suit with the lettering on back that they wear in jail (if they do this in YDC). ( I realize due to laws/insurance regulations this probably isn't possible, but I would have asked and then asked the YDC if they could bring the jump suit home).
Personally, I'm conflicted about it. We still treat kids like kids and tell them that they're 'not adults' at 17/18 in high school, but then we charge them as adults when they act like idiots. It's our fault when they do something stupid because we're the parents and it's not the government's job, but we're supposed to let the government punish them instead of us.
Do I think they need jail time? Absolutely. I'd have left my kid in overnight, if not some of the next day as well, simply so she/he knows mommy isn't going to always be capable of coming running to get her/him out of trouble. At that age, they are *almost* an adult, and they need to learn that actions, in the real world, have consequences that mommy can't always fix.
Would I hire them a lawyer? Ab.so.freakin.lutely. In the real world, if they're thirty and screw up,they'd hire themselves a lawyer...I certainly wouldn't leave them to have the book thrown at them, just as most adults would hire a lawyer to defend themselves.
Punishment - STRICT punishment, even by the court system, is absolutely called for. I would do my best to see that the felony conviction is lessened in exchange for some serious community service and/or probation, along with not fighting whatever punishment the school doles out. I'd be perfectly fine with expulsion, repeating 12th grade, etc.
And, for the record, the only reason I'd be willing to fight the felony is because a felony can screw up a person's entire life. I wouldn't fight being punished, but I would fight for their ability to at least have the opportunity to go to college, straighten themselves out, and become productive, responsible members of society.
AND, before I get jumped, no, I do not think college is neccessary for one to do any of the above. But, with a record, they are much more likely to land a job if they have four years of good grades/behavior on trackable, printable record.
"I'm not raising a child...I'm raising an adult" - LGM
'you get mega cool points for being a rare breed of woman who knows how to keep her mouth closed!!!!' - Anonymous, awesome p.commer.
All I hear................
I hear exactly what you are saying and agree with you.
These kids SHOULD be punished, severely BUT their lives should not be ruined.
As a parent, yes I would bail my son out. THEN he would begin by paying me back and work his butt off to clean the school up.
Some people think that leaving them in jail is the answer.
I think PAYBACK is the answer. But let them pay for what they did and do not ruin their lives because they did something dumb.
I agree. That is what I would do.
Them being in jail for two seconds waiting for you to come and get them is probably their worst punishment morally.( if they are good kids it would be) Then the payback of them being miserable for awhile would step in of many punishments.
I would also get a lawyer. Not worth their future.
This post has been edited by CarolineElizabeth: 12 March 2012 - 09:07 AM
My son is one of the good students. Good grades, Beta Club, doesn't get into any trouble.
If he was part of that, yes, he would have stayed in jail for these reasons. 1. Part of his punishment by the law. 2. It would give him a taste and make him think about what he has done. 3. Scare him (straight) so much that he would never do something so dumb as that ever again or break the law intentionally. AGAIN, these kids new what they were doing. It was planned, they didn't have to bring it to the school property.
I firmly believe if you keep saving a kid, they will keep doing it over and over and over no matter the situation. You scare them straight, something in their head might click and they will never get into trouble again. It would be their wake up call and hope it works.
Let me give you an example. A student stole my son's iPhone at EPHS, IF/when we get it back, I'm going to press charges. Which the student will get arrested and exspelled from school. Why, because a taste of jail, going infront of a judge, sentencing, would (I hope) scare them so much that they would never do this again and steer them straight to be a responsible adult.
Yes, many years ago, my son got in trouble and was arrested--nothing major, just stupid kid stuff. Did I get him out--yes. Did he pay me back--yes. And he paid for his own attorney (this was before I started working for attorneys and we found one that would allow HIM to make payments). He took his punishment and went on with his life.
One thing I learned amny moons ago was--NEVER say that your kid won't do something!!! It will most likely come back and bite you in the A$$!! Even the best of kids will do things with their friends that you never dreamed of. And I would venture to say that even your "best kid" has done something in their life that their parents know nothing about.
Yes, many years ago, my son got in trouble and was arrested--nothing major, just stupid kid stuff. Did I get him out--yes. Did he pay me back--yes. And he paid for his own attorney (this was before I started working for attorneys and we found one that would allow HIM to make payments). He took his punishment and went on with his life.
One thing I learned amny moons ago was--NEVER say that your kid won't do something!!! It will most likely come back and bite you in the A$!! Even the best of kids will do things with their friends that you never dreamed of. And I would venture to say that even your "best kid" has done something in their life that their parents know nothing about.
My teenaged son got locked up for possession of a pocket knife at school (a felony weapons charge). How many folks have a knife in their truck? Eventually we had lobbied the state legislature folks and got the zero tolerance law changed, but it took a lot of money and a lot of time. Further, the court system is SLOW as Christmas. While he was waiting to go to court, he got turned down from several job offers. Stuff like Food Lion, Six Flags, etc. Piddly minimum wage stuff was turning him down until the outstanding charges were taken care of. He lost his drivers license until he turned 18. He eventually had to go through pretrial diversion, community service, etc etc. A lot of red tape and a lot of money for some pure BS in my view. His charges were eventually Nolle Pros, but it took about a year. That's ridiculous, but again, if we'd have not had the money for a lawyer to get the felony reduced to a misdemeanor, there's a good chance he'd be screwed for the rest of his life.
I've always thought a good lashing with a buggy whip would benefit you immensely.
(Rhett Butler speaking to Miss Scarlett)
Yes, many years ago, my son got in trouble and was arrested--nothing major, just stupid kid stuff. Did I get him out--yes. Did he pay me back--yes. And he paid for his own attorney (this was before I started working for attorneys and we found one that would allow HIM to make payments). He took his punishment and went on with his life.
One thing I learned amny moons ago was--NEVER say that your kid won't do something!!! It will most likely come back and bite you in the A$!! Even the best of kids will do things with their friends that you never dreamed of. And I would venture to say that even your "best kid" has done something in their life that their parents know nothing about.
<<-- guilty! Honor Roll Student, FCA Member, JROTC Cadet, and worked. I was always that sweet, polite kid that the teachers praised and other parents complimented mine on having such well-behaved, good kids. I absolutely did several things my parents never would have dreamed of, still don't know about, and most certainly could have been arrested for.
"I'm not raising a child...I'm raising an adult" - LGM
'you get mega cool points for being a rare breed of woman who knows how to keep her mouth closed!!!!' - Anonymous, awesome p.commer.
I would make sure that my kid spent atleast a night in the holding cell as well as facing punishment at home. On the other hand, I would fight and spend what's needed, even if out of my own pocket, to eliminate a felony charge. Lessons are one thing....allowing your typically well-behaved kid to have their future jeopardized with a felony charge is just cheezety parenting.
mrnn
"Republicans have been fleeced, exploited, and lied to by the conservative entertainment complex" -- David Frum, Former Bush Speechwriter and directer of Republican Jewish Coalition
Well, if the kids don't want a felony on there record, then don't do the crime. Simple as that. AGAIN, these kids knew what they were doing and still did it. They know right from wrong and CHOSE to do wrong.
Well, if the kids don't want a felony on there record, then don't do the crime. Simple as that. AGAIN, these kids knew what they were doing and still did it. They know right from wrong and CHOSE to do wrong.
I can nearly guarantee you that 95% of these kids had no idea that what they were doing qualified for a felony charge nor what the full extent of the consequences of a felony record entails.
mrnn
"Republicans have been fleeced, exploited, and lied to by the conservative entertainment complex" -- David Frum, Former Bush Speechwriter and directer of Republican Jewish Coalition
My step son....we did fight for him to get a felony charge reduced and save his military, didn't work, cost around $10K. Tried again to help, bailed him out the second time...didn't work. He has now been in and out of jail 5 times, I'm done. Some folks just never wake up....
This post has been edited by gonefromhere: 12 March 2012 - 09:53 AM
I would make sure that my kid spent atleast a night in the holding cell as well as facing punishment at home. On the other hand, I would fight and spend what's needed, even if out of my own pocket, to eliminate a felony charge. Lessons are one thing....allowing your typically well-behaved kid to have their future jeopardized with a felony charge is just cheezety parenting.
mrnn
You Read my mind! I would let my kid sit in the pokey for few days then spend every penny I had to prevent a conviction of any type. Most of these kids will make a mistake and talk when they have the right to remain silent, Let the lawyer do the talking
This post has been edited by Jet_man1969: 12 March 2012 - 09:56 AM
All I Hear is Blah Blah Blah, on 12 March 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:
Your kid gets involved and caught vandalizing property. They are a kid that has never gotten into legal trouble before, done really good in school and are generally good all around kids.
Well, suppose it isn't the first time they've been in trouble? There are several "good kids" in our neighborhood who are locked up and/or awaiting trial.
My kids know there is never ever bail period. I grew up in a bad area, those of us that made it had no BS parents. i can tell you of 4 different friends with the bail out parents.
Paul- Dead
Rich- most of his 20's in jail, in and out in his 30's and 40's
Mitchell- dead
Lance- dead
And the list goes on and on. My dad raised 3 boys in the hood, none of us ever went to jail. A neighbor would always say boys will be boys, hers were always in trouble, me and my brothers not.
There is a time to help a kid and there is a time to walk away.
I personally have done both, thankfully they did nothing that would ruin their lives to the extent of a felony following them through life.
I always told my kids that the time would come when they did wrong that the world would spank them and there would be nothing I could do to help them.
I would let a kid spend a day or 2 in jail so they could experience a real world spanking.
All I Hear is Blah Blah Blah, on 12 March 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:
Ok, the posts in the other thread REALLY amaze me with people saying they would let their kid sit in jail and not bail them out, I guess I am a horrible parent but I just think that is astounding. So here is the scenario. Your kid gets involved and caught vandalizing property. They are a kid that has never gotten into legal trouble before, done really good in school and are generally good all around kids. In this situation the damage is significant and they are facing felony charges, what would you do?
I will tell you up front, #1 would be my choice and others seem to indicate that is a very poor choice. I on the other hand find #2 a very poor choice and refuse to turn my back on my kid. I would never want them to escape punishment, but I feel laying my kid out to the judicial system to punish is very harsh.
Based on my experiences with a person whose parents have bailed them out time and time again and hired lawyers time and time again, I'd let them sit and deal with the consequences while they're young and can recover from it.
I've told my boys that they get one bail phone call. I don't think (notice the word choice) that my oldest will use it. I think my youngest will find out that I won't answer the call the second time.
I would help my kid fight this. This is one of those really stupid pack animal dumb decisions that I don't think any of those kids knew the true extent of the trouble. I know a couple of the families. And, those kids may still be in jail because they are more worried about momma.
My other concern here (and I'm sure the cameras at school can probably provide the answer) is who actually did what. You might have had kids that only participated in the road part and didn't participate in the rest - they might have still been there, but not doing the actual painting. I know - technicality - but if you're fighting for your kid to get a job the rest of his life - heck - he has to do a bunch more paperwork and hope that Boy Scouts will still approve him to be a leader. There's alot of ramifications. It's easy to talk tough and punish them completely and forever. But, we also need to consider the realities of life here. These guys can't get jobs at Home Depot, Kroger, etc. because they'll have a felony record.
In my mind - there are MUCH MORE creative and painful ways for these kids to get punished for this than turning them into felons.
As I understand, one of these kids has an appointment to the Military Academy. Let me tell you - I would be fighting for his life right now to keep that appointment, if it's not already lost. That's a quarter million dollar ride to college. When he was told to stay out of trouble and no pregnancies, I don't really think he ever thought he could lose his ride over a senior prank that got out of hand.
This post has been edited by Just thinkin' hard: 12 March 2012 - 10:47 AM
Anyone who would abandon their child to the criminal justice system doesn't understand the criminal justice system nor the rights we have as citizens in dealing with the government.
We all know there are certain members of society that would extract the greatest punishment imaginable for relatively minor crimes. The old testament punishment of stoning to death for adultery and prostitution is one.
So what is the issue here? What is justice here?
I've not heard enough about it to form an opinion but do know that the US Supreme Court has ruled the burning of the American Flag could constitute constitutionally protected speech.
While I or no one will justify vandalism of public property, one might wonder if the acts of vandalism at the schools didn't contain some elements of speech and whether those elements may mitigate against the totality of the crime.
It is also predictable and certain that some parents will abandon their kids while others may seek the best possible legal help and defense for their children.
Can we be certain that the wheels of justice will treat each equally given that only a few will be able to afford the best legal representation? Or will the wealth of the parents and their willingness to provide legal assistance for their kids be a stark dividing line between those irreparably harmed by this incident and those for whom this is a memory of a momentary lapse into absolute stupidity?
Is justice served by there being such a division in outcomes.
This case, given the numbers of youths involved, will, IMO, put the community on trial as much as the youth.
One thing is for certain, this massive act of defiance and vandalism was not an expression of love and respect for the old Alma mater.
All I Hear is Blah Blah Blah, on 12 March 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:
Ok, the posts in the other thread REALLY amaze me with people saying they would let their kid sit in jail and not bail them out, I guess I am a horrible parent but I just think that is astounding. So here is the scenario. Your kid gets involved and caught vandalizing property. They are a kid that has never gotten into legal trouble before, done really good in school and are generally good all around kids. In this situation the damage is significant and they are facing felony charges, what would you do?
I will tell you up front, #1 would be my choice and others seem to indicate that is a very poor choice. I on the other hand find #2 a very poor choice and refuse to turn my back on my kid. I would never want them to escape punishment, but I feel laying my kid out to the judicial system to punish is very harsh.
On this one you may not have a choice, and I really hope you don't because these
kids need to learn a lesson before it is too late, if it is not already too late.
Oh, I learned a long time ago to not say my child would never do that. I say I hope
my child knows better and would not do it. Folks they can be influenced.
Happy Wife And Mom, on 12 March 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:
Well, suppose it isn't the first time they've been in trouble? There are several "good kids" in our neighborhood who are locked up and/or awaiting trial.
If it isn't the first time, then it would be a different story. I would be less willing to help, but it's hard to say what I would do. I honestly don't know, I hope I never find out!
Anyone who would abandon their child to the criminal justice system doesn't understand the criminal justice system nor the rights we have as citizens in dealing with the government.
We all know there are certain members of society that would extract the greatest punishment imaginable for relatively minor crimes. The old testament punishment of stoning to death for adultery and prostitution is one.
So what is the issue here? What is justice here?
I've not heard enough about it to form an opinion but do know that the US Supreme Court has ruled the burning of the American Flag could constitute constitutionally protected speech.
While I or no one will justify vandalism of public property, one might wonder if the acts of vandalism at the schools didn't contain some elements of speech and whether those elements may mitigate against the totality of the crime.
It is also predictable and certain that some parents will abandon their kids while others may seek the best possible legal help and defense for their children.
Can we be certain that the wheels of justice will treat each equally given that only a few will be able to afford the best legal representation? Or will the wealth of the parents and their willingness to provide legal assistance for their kids be a stark dividing line between those irreparably harmed by this incident and those for whom this is a memory of a momentary lapse into absolute stupidity?
Is justice served by there being such a division in outcomes.
This case, given the numbers of youths involved, will, IMO, put the community on trial as much as the youth.
One thing is for certain, this massive act of defiance and vandalism was not an expression of love and respect for the old Alma mater.
pubby
I've seen first hand what happens when a wealthy parent bails out a child. The child does not learn, and the parent continues to bail the child out well into adulthood. There is a happy medium somewhere, you don't want the kid stuck with a felony their whole life, but showing them that money can get them out of trouble will also stick with them. And I agree that the justice system is flawed. If you have the money to afford a good attorney you can get away with almost anything.
Anyone who would abandon their child to the criminal justice system doesn't understand the criminal justice system nor the rights we have as citizens in dealing with the government.
We all know there are certain members of society that would extract the greatest punishment imaginable for relatively minor crimes. The old testament punishment of stoning to death for adultery and prostitution is one.
So what is the issue here? What is justice here?
I've not heard enough about it to form an opinion but do know that the US Supreme Court has ruled the burning of the American Flag could constitute constitutionally protected speech.
While I or no one will justify vandalism of public property, one might wonder if the acts of vandalism at the schools didn't contain some elements of speech and whether those elements may mitigate against the totality of the crime.
It is also predictable and certain that some parents will abandon their kids while others may seek the best possible legal help and defense for their children.
Can we be certain that the wheels of justice will treat each equally given that only a few will be able to afford the best legal representation? Or will the wealth of the parents and their willingness to provide legal assistance for their kids be a stark dividing line between those irreparably harmed by this incident and those for whom this is a memory of a momentary lapse into absolute stupidity?
Is justice served by there being such a division in outcomes.
This case, given the numbers of youths involved, will, IMO, put the community on trial as much as the youth.
One thing is for certain, this massive act of defiance and vandalism was not an expression of love and respect for the old Alma mater.
pubby
I think the court will show leniency. There may be a ringleader or two tried for felony charges in addition to any of the kids who already have a criminal record but, from the accounts here on PCom, many of these kids are good kids. I mean one of them has been accepted to a Military Academy?!?! Not exactly "felon" material.
mrnn
"Republicans have been fleeced, exploited, and lied to by the conservative entertainment complex" -- David Frum, Former Bush Speechwriter and directer of Republican Jewish Coalition
My wonderful son did his stupid thing when he was 17 years old. His mother called and told me he was in the Cobb County Jail. I told her his ass could stay there. She exploded, like I cared, we were divorced. He spent the night in Jail. After fixing the damage he caused and apologizing for being a dumbass, they dropped the charges. He learned a valuable lesson and was never in trouble again. If they have no consequences, they don't learn a damn thing.
Anyone who would abandon their child to the criminal justice system doesn't understand the criminal justice system nor the rights we have as citizens in dealing with the government.
We all know there are certain members of society that would extract the greatest punishment imaginable for relatively minor crimes. The old testament punishment of stoning to death for adultery and prostitution is one.
So what is the issue here? What is justice here?
I've not heard enough about it to form an opinion but do know that the US Supreme Court has ruled the burning of the American Flag could constitute constitutionally protected speech.
While I or no one will justify vandalism of public property, one might wonder if the acts of vandalism at the schools didn't contain some elements of speech and whether those elements may mitigate against the totality of the crime.
It is also predictable and certain that some parents will abandon their kids while others may seek the best possible legal help and defense for their children.
Can we be certain that the wheels of justice will treat each equally given that only a few will be able to afford the best legal representation? Or will the wealth of the parents and their willingness to provide legal assistance for their kids be a stark dividing line between those irreparably harmed by this incident and those for whom this is a memory of a momentary lapse into absolute stupidity?
Is justice served by there being such a division in outcomes.
This case, given the numbers of youths involved, will, IMO, put the community on trial as much as the youth.
One thing is for certain, this massive act of defiance and vandalism was not an expression of love and respect for the old Alma mater.
pubby
First of all I'm not abandoning my son if he was to get into trouble. I'm teaching him a hard lesson that I hope he would get. Secondly I know about the system. Today isn't like it was 30, 40 years ago. You need to nip it in the bud and quick before they become a burden of society.
All I Hear is Blah Blah Blah, on 12 March 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:
If it isn't the first time, then it would be a different story. I would be less willing to help, but it's hard to say what I would do. I honestly don't know, I hope I never find out!
In all honesty misty it is hard to say what we as parents would do.. Fortunately i have never been put in that situation and i pray I never am, we have always told our boys, if you make a choice and you know that choice is a bad choice when you make it, then do not waste your 1 phone call to us.. knowing something is wrong and still doing it is not a get out of jail free card to us..
Your kids are still young, and right now it is hard to know what you would do when they reach that age of 16,17,18, let me ask you this... how many times would you get them out of jail? hire lawyer? would there be a stopping point for you to say *enough is enough I have done all i am going to do*
As parents we all hope we never have to face an issue like the parents of these kids are having to deal with right now.. it has probably ruined their lives, the parents are probably embarrassed that their child would do something like this. the kids are probably thinking what the heck did i do....
I just have to wonder if they had not of been caught would they have tried something even bigger and better... some kids these days like to push the limit..
As parents we hope we never have to face what the parents of these kids are going through, they have to be heart broken that their child made such a stupid choice, but as parents sometimes we also have to say I can not help you with this one.
"The most dangerous place in the world to be is "Between a Mother and her Child"
In Loving Memory of My Daddy and Mama
3-29-08and 10-24-2012
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