[Captain Rhett Butler]

Kevrod is trying to provoke folks. A furlough is a loss of pay because your paycheck is less. Too put all the budget gap on the teachers is irresponsible of our elected officials. Perhaps the Board should try to cut their own pay instead.

[converse]

A Former Geek, on 18 July 2011 - 09:05 AM, said:

See if you can find someone that is a teacher that will allow you to read their contract. I was pretty shocked when I read my wife's contract a few years back. It does establish important things such as pay, number of days worked, etc.. Then, the additional language can be summarized as follows: "We did not really mean what we said earlier in this agreement and by signing this agreement you acknowledge that we can change your pay, number of days work or any other item in this agreement at anytime. For that matter, we can make up stuff as the year progresses and your signature indicates acceptance of anything that we decide to do". At least that was my take-away from all the legal mumbo jumbo.

How is this any different than most other jobs? I understand it hurts to lose money, but thats the environment we're in right now.

Captain Rhett Butler, on 19 July 2011 - 02:17 AM, said:

Too put all the budget gap on the teachers is irresponsible of our elected officials.

Putting it on home owners is???

[Greatma]

Captain Rhett Butler, on 19 July 2011 - 02:17 AM, said:

Kevrod is trying to provoke folks. A furlough is a loss of pay because your paycheck is less. Too put all the budget gap on the teachers is irresponsible of our elected officials. Perhaps the Board should try to cut their own pay instead.

Do you know how much a Board member makes. certainly not enough to be cut.

[workingforaliving]

MY favorite arguement ever.


Everyone else is getting crapped on, so you should get crapped on too.


That's sound logic. Very sound.


I like my job and I'm okay with the 5 furlough days. I'm glad we don't have the 10 again. I appreciate that our BOE has decided that they need to move away from furloughs as a way to balance the budget. I appreciate that from the top down, everyone who could take furloughs, got them. I appreciate that when I go back to work next Thursday, I'll have FOUR days of preplanning.


Teachers who work hours and hours outside of school are insane. I don't work at home. I'll stay at work for an hour or two AFTER contracted time, but I do.not.bring.work.home. I believe that's where burnout happens.



Either way, I've found my calling in teaching. The fact that the teach at the next grade level (at a different school) can tell which kids were in my math class and which ones weren't, makes me feel awesome. Every time I think about leaving (and there are THOSE days), I wonder what else I would do......and draw a blank.

[Papi]

A little perspective here.

Every one of our saleried employees, about 25, takes 1 furlough day a week, 52 days a year.

We as owners have taken the equivalent of a day and a half furlough every week through pay cuts, 78 days a year. We still show up everyday, the business won't run itself. We are doing what has to be done to insure our business survives. Hoping one day to add back the 40 plus higher than average paying jobs we had to let go because of lack of work.

Count your blessings it's only 5 or 10 days you have to take a year.

I will also add that the BOE has much more waste in their system that should be cut before any teachers are furloughed. I feel your pain.

This post has been edited by Papi: 19 July 2011 - 12:07 PM

[kevrod]

WOW!! What a day!! I'm afraid I've been found out!! Somebody obviously saw me today because how would they have known that I spent all morning skating around with my movie star looks!!
Unbelievable that you can't keep a secret anymore!! I know you were all wondering what happened to me! Well good news, I got furloughed today! It was hard decision but I chose to furlough myself because I didn't want anyone to say I didn't understand. Wanted to make it fair so I furloughed myself the equivalent of the average teacher. Bad news, sat down and did the finances, and apparently not even going to notice the $20 a week it averages out to be. Talked to a teacher today, the only questions I asked her were: Do you have to take five furlough days, answer was yes!! Then I asked "Did your pay get cut". I was looking for some sympathy from her after furloughing myself and I was taken back by her response! She said no her pay was not cut! I said " What you talkin' about Willis"! She said that furlough days were NOT pay cuts! Again I said "What you talkin' about Willis"! And I thought to myself this can't be!! A liberal teacher telling me that all of my friends on P.com are wrong.(I know she's a lib because we fight all the time about how stupid I think our president is and she admits she a lib!)
She went into some mumbo jumbo about how about how her rate of pay when figured up hasn't changed when she takes in to account the days off(furlough day). I was so mad at her I hung up! How dare she say that my rate of pay is still the same after I just furloughed myself!! Going to try and tough this furlough thing out, but I don't know how many more days I'm going to be able to fish in this heat!!
Didn't want you to think I forgot about you CAPTAIN!! Good to see your back, thought you had fallen overboard!!!

This post has been edited by kevrod: 19 July 2011 - 02:11 PM

[The Sound Guy]

Captain Rhett Butler, on 17 July 2011 - 06:48 PM, said:

Teachers and other school employees shouldn't have to take a pay cut because the Board of Education cannot make the tough political decision to adjust the millage rate. Everyone is screaming about taxes, but if you want decent schools, you've got to pay your fair share.
It's not wise to get a bunch of teachers upset just so you can save $40 a year,

I thought about that the first year we had these massive tax base drops, but found that part of the issue is that they are pretty close to the legal limit now, I can't remember off the top of my head, but it's like 20 mils or so. To go over that requires the a county wide popular vote and I give that about a oh... 0% chance of passing in this climate.

Even if they used all of the 1.x mils they have left, it wouldn't come close to making up for the reductions in tax base that Paulding has had. It might help a little, but that is it.

As to why they haven't used at lease part of it, I don't know. Maybe holding on to it for emergencies.

[Spunkywman]

What I don't understand is the anger and contempt for the teachers or anyone who works in the school system? Why do they deserve to be attacked if they say anything about their circumstances? They aren't making the rules but trying to live with them even though they have no say in the matter. They are not guaranteed they will have a job tomorrow as we have seen from the layoffs in past years. This thread alone has been spent either attacked or defending themselves? Why?

[Mariposa]

Thank you Kev for making me feel so much better. All this time I was under the mistaken impression that my pay was less than it used to be before I was furloughed 5-10 days.

Now, can you convince GA Heritage Bank that there has been a mistake with my direct deposit each month? It doesn't seem to be quite what it used to be. The bank must still be mistaken, too. Will you please clear this up with them for me? Could you get your liberal teacher friend to call as well, that might help convince them that some of my money is missing since my pay was not cut.

Thank you so much for your help!

(Don't get mad I'm just teasing. You crack me up.)

[kevrod]

OOOH My little butterfly good to see you back for another round!

Just woke up from taking a nap on my first self imposed furlough day! Not getting paid for the day but the rest is sure nice!!

I typically wouldn't do this, and if it was anyone other than the lovely Mariposa, I wouldn't.
But take a copy of this post down to Heritage Bank and this should help you out. I would take this to Genevieve lovely lady!

Dear Georgia Heritage Bank,

As I'm sure you have noticed my friend Mariposa's direct deposit from PCSD has been slightly less due to the economic downturn our county and nation is dealing with.
Mariposa has been working less days and therefore her paycheck reflects as much. This reduction in her direct deposit is of no fault of her's and she is not being punished by PCSD for any lack of performance of her duties as a teacher. PCSD has just determined that they can't afford to pay her when she is not at work and therefore not doing her job. I'm assured that PCSD plans on having Mariposa back to work on those days as soon as they have a budget surplus and again you will see the average sum of twenty dollars per week added back in to her pay. I know this seems like an insignificant amount but since they get paid monthly that works out to be around eighty dollars a month. Mariposa and her friends have gotten their feelings hurt because they feel like they have gotten a pay cut. I've tried explaining to her that that is not the case and have even gone as far as using 6th grade math to illustrate that they are not getting a pay cut. I know you're thinking why did he use 6th grade math and not 7th grade math. Well the reason was they have a friend named CAPTAIN RHETT BUTLER on Paulding.com and 7th grade math was going to be too complicated for him. Anyway, apparently Mariposa and her friends don't understand that teacher' salaries are the second highest expenditure for PCSD. I guess that they think that their mortgage payments are more important than the janitor, housekeeper,secretary,and all other professions in this country. OH! and your's too Ms. bank teller. Oh, I'm sorry you already lost your home, well Mariposa and her friends say "better you than them". Well if you don't mind, will you please coddle and carress Mariposa and any other persons you know that have to take furlough days.

P.S. Take money out of Captain Rhett Butler's account and deposit it in Mariposa's because he felt like he wasn't paying his fair share!! Start with $40 a month for right now. Next year up to $80/month.

Sincerely,

Kevrod

This post has been edited by kevrod: 19 July 2011 - 07:18 PM

[Spunkywman]

I am done with this thread before I say what's on my mind. You don't want to talk just attack. You don't care to listen what others have to say.

[kevrod]

Hmmm. Thought this was the SCHOOL VENT forum. Apparently Spunkywman thought she was in the internet cafe, where you bloviate about the bachelorette! I've listened to what every person has to say on here. Apparently opinions are only welcome as long as they coincide with the majority.TOO BAD!! Just remember, I'm the person standing in line beside you,I'm the person sitting at the table next to you, I'm the parent of the child you teach! I am everywhere!!

[cobb transplant]

uh, one more time...who is going to teach at the new school? we cannot afford the teachers we have - hence the non-paycut furlough days (attention teachers: that reduction in your pay check isn't really there, you can just ignore it - or better yet, tell the EMC that you are furloughing them for the same number of days and therefore the check you send them only appears to be less than what is due...they can check here for the math on that if they are in doubt).

Now also, there is the upkeep cost of the new school for the next twenty or so years. Oh, and we'll need to round up quite a few volunteers for service staff and administrative positions.

[A Former Geek]

converse, on 19 July 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

How is this any different than most other jobs? I understand it hurts to lose money, but thats the environment we're in right now.

Good question. It's different, in that normally, a furlough day means an employee is relieved from the responsibilities of their position for that day. I have no issue with a furlough day that results in a reduction of a school day for the kids, The responsibilities of the teacher for that day have been eliminated. On the other hand, when a teacher workday in converted to a furlough day, the work scheduled for that day still has to be done. (Things such as report cards, preparation for the next term, etc...). The reality is that it is not a furlough day, but a mandatory "work for free or get fired" day. Again, I don't have a problem with folks taking a pay cut. My problem is with taking a pay cut and calling it a furlough day when the elimination of a teacher workday is involved. The reason I have a problem with that is that it is confusing to people that are not aware of the work required of a teacher in addition to actually teaching kids. The proof of that confusion is some of the posts in this topic.


In closing-

Furlough day + elimination of school day for kids = a genuine furlough day

Furlough day + NO elimination of school day for kids = Elimination of a teacher workday (but the work still has to be done) = an incorrect usage of the word "furlough"


Furlough - a leave of absence from duty granted especially to a soldier; also : a document authorizing such a leave of absence
http://www.merriam-w...ionary/furlough

[kevrod]

Hey, Thanks for the example, Never thought of that one. But you should learn to think before you type. That actually is a perfect example to make my point.
But I will not need to call them to let them know I will not be paying as much. They will already know and will adjust my bill accordingly.

You are charged by the kilowatt, If I want to lower my monthly costs what do I do? I'll answer for you. I turn off the lights.
Let's say I use 1 kW per week at a rate of $25 per kW
.For a total of 4kW's in a month, every month it's the same and my bill is $100/m
I then go on vacation for 1 week and I turn off all power
Does the EMC think that they are owed $100
No they don't! Because I used one less kW for the week I was gone.
So now they only get $75!!! But their bill rate hasn't changed it is still $25 per kW

cobb transplant, on 19 July 2011 - 09:41 PM, said:

uh, one more time...who is going to teach at the new school? we cannot afford the teachers we have - hence the non-paycut furlough days (attention teachers: that reduction in your pay check isn't really there, you can just ignore it - or better yet, tell the EMC that you are furloughing them for the same number of days and therefore the check you send them only appears to be less than what is due...they can check here for the math on that if they are in doubt).

Now also, there is the upkeep cost of the new school for the next twenty or so years. Oh, and we'll need to round up quite a few volunteers for service staff and administrative positions.

[Mariposa]

kevrod, on 19 July 2011 - 10:05 PM, said:

Hey, Thanks for the example, Never thought of that one. But you should learn to think before you type. That actually is a perfect example to make my point.
But I will not need to call them to let them know I will not be paying as much. They will already know and will adjust my bill accordingly.

You are charged by the kilowatt, If I want to lower my monthly costs what do I do? I'll answer for you. I turn off the lights.
Let's say I use 1 kW per week at a rate of $25 per kW
.For a total of 4kW's in a month, every month it's the same and my bill is $100/m
I then go on vacation for 1 week and I turn off all power
Does the EMC think that they are owed $100
No they don't! Because I used one less kW for the week I was gone.
So now they only get $75!!! But their bill rate hasn't changed it is still $25 per kW

What you are not understanding is that when teachers are furloughed, the kilowatts are still racking up. There are not fewer standards to teach, fewer lessons to plan, fewer papers to grade, etc. The power is not turned off, its still there. The "official" hours may have been reduced, but the job is not.

For example, most years during pre-planning teachers go through mandatory training for ethics, child abuse, emergencies, copy-write laws, etc. We spend hours and hours in these mandatory meetings. Last year, the county put these on video link on the website and we were required to watch them and sign a paper certifying that they were watched. Since our pre-planning was reduced by several days, for most of us it meant that we watched them at home on time we were not paid for that time. Most teachers came in during the furlough time to get prepared for the year. Because they pay us for less time, does not mean we work less hours.

[kevrod]

Mariposa,

I want to say that you are the one person on here, that I actually do not want to argue with. I believe you are probably one nicest person's I will never meet. My problem is definitely not with you personally.
I actually enjoy the banter back and forth with you.The problem I have only deals with technical aspect of furlough days and rate of pay. I care personally about the time teacher's put in to educating our children. That is not my point. Everyone keeps saying they are salary. That means nothing other than a price you have been paid for your services under certain criteria. It doesn't matter if your salary or not there is still a price it costs per day for your services. When you are furloughed a day then you are not having to fulfill your contract for that day so PCSD cannot be required to fulfill their end of the contract. I understand that you have to do certain things(all the things you mentioned) for your job, but you would have to do those things even if their weren't furlough days. If their were no furlough days and you did not get your work done in the normal operational hours. Do you still not have to get them done or do you say every child gets an 0 because I didn't have time to do it at school. If I got a job at wal-mart and they had a policy of no shorts and all I have are shorts. Do I get to charge wal-mart for my time to go shopping for pants. No because that is what is required of me to have a job at wal-mart. Do you get to charge PCSD for the time it took for you to shop for the clothes you wear to school. No you don't, because you know they are not going to let you go nude and clothes are required to do that job. Standards,planning,grading, etc. Those things are required of you to be a teacher.I would think that when you chose your profession you would have known that's what teacher's do. When their were no furlough days did they pay you less than your contract said when a child was sick for a week and not in your class. No they didn't but you had one less child to teach, one less test to grade, and less homework to check that week. Your job was easier that week especially if it was some of these children I know.

Mariposa, on 19 July 2011 - 10:58 PM, said:

What you are not understanding is that when teachers are furloughed, the kilowatts are still racking up. There are not fewer standards to teach, fewer lessons to plan, fewer papers to grade, etc. The power is not turned off, its still there. The "official" hours may have been reduced, but the job is not.

For example, most years during pre-planning teachers go through mandatory training for ethics, child abuse, emergencies, copy-write laws, etc. We spend hours and hours in these mandatory meetings. Last year, the county put these on video link on the website and we were required to watch them and sign a paper certifying that they were watched. Since our pre-planning was reduced by several days, for most of us it meant that we watched them at home on time we were not paid for that time. Most teachers came in during the furlough time to get prepared for the year. Because they pay us for less time, does not mean we work less hours.

[converse]

A Former Geek, on 19 July 2011 - 10:03 PM, said:

On the other hand, when a teacher workday in converted to a furlough day, the work scheduled for that day still has to be done. (Things such as report cards, preparation for the next term, etc...). The reality is that it is not a furlough day, but a mandatory "work for free or get fired" day.

So I'll ask the question a little differently...
How is this any different than other professional jobs out there. Unless you're physically able to leave a job "at work" it is going to follow you home. It sucks, but again this is the environment we all live in.

[converse]

Spunkywman, on 19 July 2011 - 04:06 PM, said:

What I don't understand is the anger and contempt for the teachers or anyone who works in the school system? Why do they deserve to be attacked if they say anything about their circumstances?

I'll give you two reason. They're only my opinion though

1. We have had hundreds of millions of dollars worth of taxes pushed on us the past few years. All in the name of students and teachers. Yes.. I know there is much more to it that that but the arguments center on "think if the children" and "think of the teachers". We can't blame the children so the next logical step are the teachers. Is it justifiable?? Somewhat because the teachers put themselves at the front line when pushing for additional funding. If you want the candy you have to put up with the cavities that follow...

2. All we seem to ever hear about is how bad teachers have it. Not enough pay... To many hours.. To many children per room... and so on... After a while people get fed up and burnt out on hearing it. Everybody bitches about work every now and them. My problem with hearing it from teachers is I immediately think about this unhappy person is responsible for my child's education and do I really want someone unhappy with their job in that position. Is it unfair? Probably to a certain extent.

[cherokeewoman]

No matter what the teachers will do their jobs, that is why they chose teaching... My hubby is a police and he has had to take many furlough days, insurance and pension costs have gone up, but he still does his job...
The economy now sucks.... don't see it getting better in the year to come, but if you now have a job, you are lucky.
I know people that have their teaching degree and can not get a job/// have tried for over a year or so... All in the middle class have been hard hit. All are suffering, teachers, firefighters, police and everyone else.... You do what you have to do and go on... Hopefully we will have a governement that will quit fighting and someone up there will have enough sense to come up with a plan... until then we do what we have to do to survive..... home values have gone down for some, credit is still not good, who knows what will happen after Aug 2, if the Us can not pay debts... be thankful for what you have, and pray you can keep it, depending on our government. we all may be in a world of hurt.

[Epiphany]

cobb transplant, on 19 July 2011 - 09:41 PM, said:

uh, one more time...who is going to teach at the new school? we cannot afford the teachers we have - hence the non-paycut furlough days (attention teachers: that reduction in your pay check isn't really there, you can just ignore it - or better yet, tell the EMC that you are furloughing them for the same number of days and therefore the check you send them only appears to be less than what is due...they can check here for the math on that if they are in doubt).

Now also, there is the upkeep cost of the new school for the next twenty or so years. Oh, and we'll need to round up quite a few volunteers for service staff and administrative positions.

The new school will likely have more IUs (Instructional Units) than the surrounding schools. Some of the older schools will likely be closed and there will be redistricting. The schools that are closed will transfer the current teachers and staff to this new one. E-SPLOST is used for the maintenance/upkeep of the schools (not power or salaries).

This post has been edited by Epiphany: 20 July 2011 - 07:55 AM

[A Former Geek]

converse, on 20 July 2011 - 12:26 AM, said:

So I'll ask the question a little differently...
How is this any different than other professional jobs out there. Unless you're physically able to leave a job "at work" it is going to follow you home. It sucks, but again this is the environment we all live in.

I have not heard of any companies furloughing employees and still expecting them to do the work required on those days. Can you provide some examples where this has occurred? Normally, companies that need to reduce cost simply announce a reduction in pay if the employee's work load remains the same. I have no issue with reducing teachers pay as needed to meet economic difficulties. My issue is with use of the word furlough. In the interest of truthfulness, the term " reduction in pay" is more accurate when it comes to teacher workdays converted to so called "furlough days". IMO "Furlough" implies that the teacher is on leave and does not to worry about work for that day.

[fishnthec]

cobb transplant, on 19 July 2011 - 09:41 PM, said:

uh, one more time...who is going to teach at the new school? we cannot afford the teachers we have - hence the non-paycut furlough days (attention teachers: that reduction in your pay check isn't really there, you can just ignore it - or better yet, tell the EMC that you are furloughing them for the same number of days and therefore the check you send them only appears to be less than what is due...they can check here for the math on that if they are in doubt).

Now also, there is the upkeep cost of the new school for the next twenty or so years. Oh, and we'll need to round up quite a few volunteers for service staff and administrative positions.

I don't have an answer but your question is valid. SPHS built on a new wing that was opened last year and except for about 4 classrooms it was completely empty all day long. Why? It was being heated and cooled. Continuing to build just because the county has the money set aside for it is not responsible. Desperate times should call for desperate measures. There should eaither be some special vote to disperse the monies in a more logical way due to the economical turn that the county has taken or the building should be put on hold until the economy turns around. there is no need to heat and cool empty rooms.

[Epiphany]

fishnthec, on 20 July 2011 - 07:40 AM, said:

I don't have an answer but your question is valid. SPHS built on a new wing that was opened last year and except for about 4 classrooms it was completely empty all day long. Why? It was being heated and cooled. Continuing to build just because the county has the money set aside for it is not responsible. Desperate times should call for desperate measures. There should eaither be some special vote to disperse the monies in a more logical way due to the economical turn that the county has taken or the building should be put on hold until the economy turns around. there is no need to heat and cool empty rooms.

Money from E-SPLOST can only be used for items in the SPLOST IV notebook. By law, they cannot disperse/reallocate the money for items that are not listed in the referendum/notebook. There is a down-turn in construction prices; hence a partial reasoning to continue doing these projects. When the economy does turn around, it will cost more to build them. The District is realizing and taking advantage of these current savings by building now.

[fishnthec]

Epiphany, on 20 July 2011 - 07:54 AM, said:

Money from E-SPLOST can only be used for items in the SPLOST IV notebook. By law, they cannot disperse/reallocate the money for items that are not listed in the referendum/notebook. There is a down-turn in construction prices; hence a partial reasoning to continue doing these projects. When the economy does turn around, it will cost more to build them. The District is realizing and taking advantage of these current savings by building now.

I realize the SPLOST law is a dedicated spending law. I am also a realist when it comes to the economy of Paulding County. Realistically we a probably looking at a decade or more (if ever) before the ecomomy recovers and becomes what it was when the SPLOST was passed. Heating/cooling and continuing to pay for upkeep on empty classrooms is a waste of county funds that is not covered by SPLOST. Every penny that we waste is a penny that we could be using to pay a teacher. Every overcrowded classroom is a child that is not being educated to the best of our abilities.

This post has been edited by fishnthec: 20 July 2011 - 08:09 AM

[kevrod]

I somewhat agree with premise of your statement as far as priorities.
But I personally would rather schools be overbuilt as far as size.
That way they are better prepared for the demographic changes.
I believe that for the most part PCSD has a good handle on the type of schools that need to be built. Simple but functional.
(Except for the big chicken look at AMS). I feel that was wasteful.
Instead of buildings schools I too would like it if that money could be used for other things, like teacher pay, but that is not the way the system structured.
If we want to stop building schools all we have to do is vote against the funding for these type of projects at the ballot box.
(I know your probably thinking we tried that with the airport, didn't work!)
Well Jerry Shearin was a self-absorbed moron who got his payback!
And that is how we have to do it!

fishnthec, on 20 July 2011 - 07:40 AM, said:

I don't have an answer but your question is valid. SPHS built on a new wing that was opened last year and except for about 4 classrooms it was completely empty all day long. Why? It was being heated and cooled. Continuing to build just because the county has the money set aside for it is not responsible. Desperate times should call for desperate measures. There should eaither be some special vote to disperse the monies in a more logical way due to the economical turn that the county has taken or the building should be put on hold until the economy turns around. there is no need to heat and cool empty rooms.

This post has been edited by kevrod: 20 July 2011 - 08:24 AM

[Veritas]

kevrod, on 20 July 2011 - 12:11 AM, said:

I care personally about the time teacher's put in to educating our children. That is not my point. Everyone keeps saying they are salary. That means nothing other than a price you have been paid for your services under certain criteria. It doesn't matter if your salary or not there is still a price it costs per day for your services. When you are furloughed a day then you are not having to fulfill your contract for that day so PCSD cannot be required to fulfill their end of the contract. I understand that you have to do certain things(all the things you mentioned) for your job, but you would have to do those things even if their weren't furlough days. If their were no furlough days and you did not get your work done in the normal operational hours. Do you still not have to get them done or do you say every child gets an 0 because I didn't have time to do it at school. If I got a job at wal-mart and they had a policy of no shorts and all I have are shorts. Do I get to charge wal-mart for my time to go shopping for pants. No because that is what is required of me to have a job at wal-mart. Do you get to charge PCSD for the time it took for you to shop for the clothes you wear to school. No you don't, because you know they are not going to let you go nude and clothes are required to do that job. Standards,planning,grading, etc. Those things are required of you to be a teacher.I would think that when you chose your profession you would have known that's what teacher's do. When their were no furlough days did they pay you less than your contract said when a child was sick for a week and not in your class. No they didn't but you had one less child to teach, one less test to grade, and less homework to check that week. Your job was easier that week especially if it was some of these children I know.

I am not sure which is more distressing: Lack of accurate information, lack of systematic logical thought process, or just lack of spelling.

Your analogy is flawed because:

1) When a student is out for a day, week, month, whatever, the teacher's responsibilities with that student do not go away. There is make-up work to be done, in some fashion. In most cases, the student is not simply excused from the missed work, and the teacher will have to see that it is covered somehow.

2) The should-I-charge-my-employer-for-my-wardrobe scenario is ludicrous. The other poster was enumerating work tasks that require completion, regardless of how many work days are scheduled for their completion. They must be completed, whether there are two or ten workdays. Your wardrobe bit does not pertain to the completion of x-number of tasks in y-number of days; it pertains to personal preparation. By extension, one could include one's bathroom routine before going to work in the morning. One is a pre-condition, if you will, of employment; the other is a concrete listing of on-the-job tasks to be completed within a given time-frame. One lists tasks to be completed at work; the other does not.

[fed-up]

A Former Geek, on 20 July 2011 - 07:21 AM, said:

I have not heard of any companies furloughing employees and still expecting them to do the work required on those days. Can you provide some examples where this has occurred? Normally, companies that need to reduce cost simply announce a reduction in pay if the employee's work load remains the same. I have no issue with reducing teachers pay as needed to meet economic difficulties. My issue is with use of the word furlough. In the interest of truthfulness, the term " reduction in pay" is more accurate when it comes to teacher workdays converted to so called "furlough days". IMO "Furlough" implies that the teacher is on leave and does not to worry about work for that day.

You are correct about furlough days, you are NOT to work on a furlough day by law. It is against the law to work on a furlough day. This is not to say that you can't work at home, but you are not to be on your job work site. The reason for this is workers comp is paid by the days you work, this also saves the county money because the don't pay workers comp for furlough days, so if you are at work on a furlough day and you are injured workers comp will not pay!!!

This was discussed at length last year, it's getting old. Let's move on. I'm happy I have a job. Furlough days sux (and YES you lose Money) Teaching is a noble profession so stop bashing us!!! We have a right to our opinion and the right to complain. And just because we may complain doesn't me we don't take our job seriously. Teacher will teach and do it well because it is our calling!!!

[kevrod]

Everything I have researched about classroom size in PC indicates their are about 15 kids per class. What is too small or too large of class size? I personally don't think that 20 kids per class is too much. Now I wouldn't want a class of all boys or all girls, but that has more to do with the temperament of each! When I was in school they only had one adult in class and it seemed that order was maintained pretty well. Most of us all became pretty successful adults don't you think. I believe the problem instead of class size is the lack of support teacher's get by parents and the higher ups to maintain order. A teacher can't hurt Johnny's feelings because mom and dad are their to complain. Teacher's are required to worry about whether a child has a hole in his or her pants that is too high or too low. And then you have to be careful then because what if that child's parents didn't intentionally buy pants with holes in it and just can't afford new pants. We don't want to hurt their feelings either! All of these type of things no matter how minuscule take away from teaching kids.

[brown*eyed*girl]

kevrod, on 20 July 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

Everything I have researched about classroom size in PC indicates their are about 15 kids per class. What is too small or too large of class size? I personally don't think that 20 kids per class is too much. Now I wouldn't want a class of all boys or all girls, but that has more to do with the temperament of each! When I was in school they only had one adult in class and it seemed that order was maintained pretty well. Most of us all became pretty successful adults don't you think. I believe the problem instead of class size is the lack of support teacher's get by parents and the higher ups to maintain order. A teacher can't hurt Johnny's feelings because mom and dad are their to complain. Teacher's are required to worry about whether a child has a hole in his or her pants that is too high or too low. And then you have to be careful then because what if that child's parents didn't intentionally buy pants with holes in it and just can't afford new pants. We don't want to hurt their feelings either! All of these type of things no matter how minuscule take away from teaching kids.

Well your research is way off base. I have three kids in the Paulding County School system and have been here for 10 years. Only one year did I have a child in a class with under 20. More recently they are running closer to 30 and when you get to the middle and high schools it can be even higher. My daughter had a class last year where the teachers desk was being used by students. I think there was close to 40 kids in that class. It was insane. I sub and I can tell you first hand class size makes a difference.

This is not to say I don't agree with you on the whole furlough day reduction in pay argument. I see your logic there and have backed out of that conversation many times in the past few days but I had to step in here on the class size misinformation.

Carry on....

[fishnthec]

kevrod, on 20 July 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

Everything I have researched about classroom size in PC indicates their are about 15 kids per class. What is too small or too large of class size? I personally don't think that 20 kids per class is too much. Now I wouldn't want a class of all boys or all girls, but that has more to do with the temperament of each! When I was in school they only had one adult in class and it seemed that order was maintained pretty well. Most of us all became pretty successful adults don't you think. I believe the problem instead of class size is the lack of support teacher's get by parents and the higher ups to maintain order. A teacher can't hurt Johnny's feelings because mom and dad are their to complain. Teacher's are required to worry about whether a child has a hole in his or her pants that is too high or too low. And then you have to be careful then because what if that child's parents didn't intentionally buy pants with holes in it and just can't afford new pants. We don't want to hurt their feelings either! All of these type of things no matter how minuscule take away from teaching kids.

You need to redo your research.

[Epiphany]

kevrod, on 20 July 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

Everything I have researched about classroom size in PC indicates their are about 15 kids per class. What is too small or too large of class size? I personally don't think that 20 kids per class is too much. Now I wouldn't want a class of all boys or all girls, but that has more to do with the temperament of each! When I was in school they only had one adult in class and it seemed that order was maintained pretty well. Most of us all became pretty successful adults don't you think. I believe the problem instead of class size is the lack of support teacher's get by parents and the higher ups to maintain order. A teacher can't hurt Johnny's feelings because mom and dad are their to complain. Teacher's are required to worry about whether a child has a hole in his or her pants that is too high or too low. And then you have to be careful then because what if that child's parents didn't intentionally buy pants with holes in it and just can't afford new pants. We don't want to hurt their feelings either! All of these type of things no matter how minuscule take away from teaching kids.

I can only attest to stats from EPHS about classroom size (for 2010-2011 school year):

Total Enrollment: 1663
Size of Senior Class: 356
Average Classroom Size: 32

EPHS Profile 2010-2011

Additional information for other schools:

Hiram HS Profile 2010-2011

SPHS Profile 2010-2011

PCHS Profile 2010-2011

This post has been edited by Epiphany: 20 July 2011 - 11:12 AM

[kevrod]

Hey brown-eyed girl! One of the best song's ever in my opinion.
I'm sure it does but that is where and I'm realistic enough to know that the younger the children are the more difficult it is. But I thought that is why we have parapro for those don't we? And that IS a question not a smart remark. I know I would be willing to give a day or two to help out (AS long as it is not language arts!) Absolutely the most miserable classes I ever took!! I do not want to here it from LA teachers, I know it's important so our children don't grow up saying "wassup" ! But I don't think the school system would appreciate my stern discipline. But the larger the number of any group the larger the authoritative voice has to be. That's what the school system needs to learn and let teacher's handle it!! If you know what I mean. I am not my child's friend. I love and cherish them but I want them to know I'm the Boss. If that's being a tad bit fearful of me, I will take that to know that they are being respectful to others. And hopefully that help them to grow up to be responsible adults. Also does not a football coach have fifty children that he maintains order over. I know people will say its not the same but they still have to organize and instruct. They do it with a stern attitude. It is the my way or highway approach.

brown*eyed*girl, on 20 July 2011 - 09:40 AM, said:

Well your research is way off base. I have three kids in the Paulding County School system and have been here for 10 years. Only one year did I have a child in a class with under 20. More recently they are running closer to 30 and when you get to the middle and high schools it can be even higher. My daughter had a class last year where the teachers desk was being used by students. I think there was close to 40 kids in that class. It was insane. I sub and I can tell you first hand class size makes a difference.

This is not to say I don't agree with you on the whole furlough day reduction in pay argument. I see your logic there and have backed out of that conversation many times in the past few days but I had to step in here on the class size misinformation.

Carry on....

This post has been edited by kevrod: 20 July 2011 - 11:19 AM

[fishnthec]

[quote name='kevrod' timestamp='1311178246' post='3490784']
Hey brown-eyed girl! One of the best song's ever in my opinion.
I'm sure it does but that is where and I'm realistic enough to know that the younger the children are the more difficult it is. But I thought that is why we have parapro for those don't we? And that IS a question not a smart remark. I know I would be willing to give a day or two to help out (AS long as it is not language arts!)







Paras have also been cut. They no longer have them in first grade and if I am not mistaken they are sharing them in kindergartens now. Not sure of the kindergarten thing. It's been a while since my elementary days. ESEP paras have also been been cut so drastically that I would venture to say that the BOE is hopeful that most parents with children on IEP's don't keep They are going to be very hard pressed to cover the required mods with the short staff they are dealing with.

Although I questioned your research on classroom numbers I agree with you one hundred and ten percent on the discipline. There is no way to teach a classroom with 5 kids or 40 kids if you cannot discipline them effectively. The powere has to be given back to the teachers.

This post has been edited by fishnthec: 20 July 2011 - 11:39 AM

[Veritas]

kevrod, on 20 July 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

Everything I have researched about classroom size in PC indicates their are about 15 kids per class.

Good grief. Where in the world have you ever seen such a claim in recent years? Would you kindly share the source with us? Even before the class cap was lifted, that was not the case. But since the state has waived class size caps for several years, it is closer to twice that in elementary alone. Secondary schools are running 30-34 per class, with some fortunate smaller classes.

Also, do not be confused between system averages and reality. When a system claims an average class size, that is a meaningless figure, because all of the special needs classes, even the tiniest groups with five kids, are averaged into the equation, along with some classes of forty. System averages mean nothing. Only when the state has a no-exception cap in place, which it only had for a few short years, are published numbers even close to reality. Even then, the use of co-teachers or combined classes can still be used to give the appearance of smaller classes. But for the last few years, huge classes have been the order of the day.

[Mariposa]

kevrod, on 20 July 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

Everything I have researched about classroom size in PC indicates their are about 15 kids per class. What is too small or too large of class size? I personally don't think that 20 kids per class is too much. Now I wouldn't want a class of all boys or all girls, but that has more to do with the temperament of each! When I was in school they only had one adult in class and it seemed that order was maintained pretty well. Most of us all became pretty successful adults don't you think. I believe the problem instead of class size is the lack of support teacher's get by parents and the higher ups to maintain order. A teacher can't hurt Johnny's feelings because mom and dad are their to complain. Teacher's are required to worry about whether a child has a hole in his or her pants that is too high or too low. And then you have to be careful then because what if that child's parents didn't intentionally buy pants with holes in it and just can't afford new pants. We don't want to hurt their feelings either! All of these type of things no matter how minuscule take away from teaching kids.

averaged about 28-32 in our middle school last year (some classes are smaller and some are bigger)
Estimates for the upcoming year are looking like 35 since we lost a teaching a position in our grade.

Kev--please don't try to convince me that my classes are not actually getting larger

[Mariposa]

converse, on 20 July 2011 - 12:26 AM, said:

So I'll ask the question a little differently...
How is this any different than other professional jobs out there. Unless you're physically able to leave a job "at work" it is going to follow you home. It sucks, but again this is the environment we all live in.

It does stink. I know that many other people who are furloughed, not just teachers, have to fulfill all the same responsibilities for their jobs and take work home. Teachers are not alone in this and I'm not arguing that we are special or treated worse off than many other people who are being furloughed. As much as I don't like it, I wasn't even complaining about the furloughs. The only reason I am posting over and over in this thread is that someone is trying to convince me that teachers in Paulding have not experienced a pay cut as a result of the furloughs and that simply is not true.

[A Former Geek]

fed-up, on 20 July 2011 - 08:36 AM, said:

You are correct about furlough days, you are NOT to work on a furlough day by law. It is against the law to work on a furlough day. This is not to say that you can't work at home, but you are not to be on your job work site. The reason for this is workers comp is paid by the days you work, this also saves the county money because the don't pay workers comp for furlough days, so if you are at work on a furlough day and you are injured workers comp will not pay!!!

This was discussed at length last year, it's getting old. Let's move on. I'm happy I have a job. Furlough days sux (and YES you lose Money) Teaching is a noble profession so stop bashing us!!! We have a right to our opinion and the right to complain. And just because we may complain doesn't me we don't take our job seriously. Teacher will teach and do it well because it is our calling!!!

Just so there is no misunderstanding, my wife (a schoolteacher) and many other teachers did not do the following since it would be against the law:

1. Work at the school this past Thursday and Friday.
2. Has not been working at the school since 9am this morning and is not still working there at this time with an estimated completion time of 4pm-5pm.

I would also like to state that no school official unlocked the school today or any other day mentioned above since she and her coworkers were NOT working there.

I'm really upset about this as she must be having an affair since she is NOT working because that would be against the law.

[Veritas]

A Former Geek, on 30 July 2011 - 11:55 AM, said:

Just so there is no misunderstanding, my wife (a schoolteacher) and many other teachers did not do the following since it would be against the law:

1. Work at the school this past Thursday and Friday.
2. Has not been working at the school since 9am this morning and is not still working there at this time with an estimated completion time of 4pm-5pm.

I would also like to state that no school official unlocked the school today or any other day mentioned above since she and her coworkers were NOT working there.

I'm really upset about this as she must be having an affair since she is NOT working because that would be against the law.

Thursday and Friday were official workdays, so there were no workers' comp concerns there.

There certainly is no law against teachers or other employees working in the building on furlough days, weekends, or any other days. It is true that if they are injured, it is unlikely that workers' comp would cover them; however, there is a big difference between that and saying that it is "against the law" to work on a furlough day. Unless there is a specific statute that prohibits it, it is not unlawful.

[A Former Geek]

Veritas, on 30 July 2011 - 01:08 PM, said:

Thursday and Friday were official workdays, so there were no workers' comp concerns there.

There certainly is no law against teachers or other employees working in the building on furlough days, weekends, or any other days. It is true that if they are injured, it is unlikely that workers' comp would cover them; however, there is a big difference between that and saying that it is "against the law" to work on a furlough day. Unless there is a specific statute that prohibits it, it is not unlawful.

I failed to mention the wife does not work in Paulding County. For our county, the workdays begin next Monday.

The "against the law" verbiage, was a quote from the post that I responded to (which I quoted entirely in my post).

I'm just demonstrating the absurdity of some of the post in this thread by being absurd myself.